"They shelled everyone in Gaza ... they shelled children and hospitals and mosques and in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way,"said Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar. Of course the hospitals and schools and even the mosques are ammunition dumps and launching pads for the thousands and thousands of missilesHamas has launched and is launching indiscriminately into Southern Israel for the very purpose of provoking an attack which, seeing as they are hiding in schools and hospitals and apartment houses would generate the kind ofinadvertent martyrdom Hamas , in its self-righteous cowardice, likes to assign to innocent people. They're still firing them into towns and villages and still refusing to stop even if itallows a cease fire and the end of the killing.
Of course it's hard to cite something as a provocation when it follows your prior provocation, but the chain of provocation and response is so long, any party can pick a beginning that suits their arguments -- and of course they do.
Is the Israeli response disproportionate? Of course, but if someone fires a bullet at you would you limit yourself to firing only one in return -- and of the same caliber? I think not. Would we have given Germany back to the Germans or Japan back to the Japanese had they persisted in firing hundreds of rockets at us every day of the week? HaveHamas's rocket attacks and suicide bombing attacks been entirely against civilians? Of course. Have Israeli embargoes and draconian restrictions followed massacres? Yes, and around and around we go.
Is this kind of insanity the ineluctable result of two religious cultures claiming the same ground for religious reasons? In any event, I'm not a believer in any peaceful solution that will allow all concerned to lead decent, secure lives. If Israel were to turn over all territory taken after neighboring states tried to annihilate them, I have no doubt that every square inch would be used as a base of operations to once again attempt to kill every Israeli and every shot would come from behind a screen of women and children. So far, that's just what has happened.
There has been a tense and angry peace between Israel and other neighboring countries, but I see no hope for a Palestinian state in addition to Jordan, unless it's willing to accept Israel's existence -- and Hamas is not about the acceptance of Israel.
Hamas' strategy is to provoke Israel into vicious insanity - and it works. As they haven't the manpower or the weapons for anything but barbaric terrorism against innocent civilians, they depend on getting sympathy through the sacrifice of their own innocent citizens - and it works and as long as it works, they're not going to fix it.
A rather succinct analysis. I loathe warmongering as a rule, but in this case, I cannot blame Israel for its actions since it has been pushed to the breaking point. And how true that Hamas operates from a variety of civilian structures in order to rack up the "innocent" death count. One glaring problem is that the people in the Gaza put Hamas in power and so allow them an operating base.
ReplyDeleteHamas wants to annihilate Israel in particular and all Jews as a rule - they have said so on numerous occasions. Israel has fought too hard and paid too high a price for their autonomy to just give it up.
No, don't see much of a resolution in there...
Why don't they both just nuke eachother and get it over with. Joe
ReplyDeleteI'm being trashed elsewhere for saying this - and I expected it, even though I do recognize Israel's stupidity in being goaded into such things.
ReplyDeleteHamas has no hope other than to seem a victim and everything they have done has served that charade, but Israel has been intransigent about settlements and a bit reckless with air power.. more than a bit actually.
But this thing seems so far beyond anyone's ability to fox it that I admit Joe's idea has appeared in my thoughts from time to time.
Clearly, the reactions from various world leaders calling for an immediate cease-fire are exposing their true anti-Israel sentiments. They would never admit that their own country would do exactly as Israel is doing right now if it had a neighboring country lobbing thousands of missiles into it for the last several years, indiscriminately killing and maiming its own citizens. Hamas has been converting Gaza into a war zone for the last ten years, constructing a network of tunnels between houses, as well as to the Egyptian border in order to ensure the continual flow of arms. This organization has made it quite clear that it is more interested in killing Israelis than in preserving the lives of the innocent people in Gaza. That's why it positions its missile launchers and weapons caches in otherwise peaceful neighborhoods filled with children, hospitals and schools. That's what they do and, for that reason, any reasonable person would understand that no compromise, concession, or unilateral withdrawal by Israel will stop the violence. Hamas is and always will be a terrorist organization whose primary objective is to promote a holy war against the Jewish state. If Israel stops this current offensive anywhere short of eliminating Hamas in Gaza, we will all be watching this exact same scenario unfold in another year or so. It needs to stop, this time, for good. Sadly, good people are going to be hurt, but that is not Israel's fault.
ReplyDeleteI have to think that many Palestinians have legitimate historical grievances, but of course they can't begin to seek compensation for lost property in the current situation. Legitimate things are being drowned out by the illegitimate.
ReplyDeleteYou may be right, I fear you are, but the possibility of eliminating Hamas is slim and perhaps just not there. Their "martyrdom" just creates more of them.
I read accounts of the latest conflict with reservations. Of the generations of Palestinians with no autonomy and no future, abandoned even by fellow Moslems, it is easy to understand their frustration and rage. Of the civilian population in Israel under constant attack by suicide bombers and rocket fire, one cannot argue against their right to defend themselves.
ReplyDeleteI am conflicted. One thinks of those ancestors who perished in the Holocaust, yet responds with shock to see their descendants oppress yet another people. Thus, we have contradictory responses to the same historical trauma. Instead of calls for universal human rights, we witness a succession of wars in the name of “Never Again” by those enslaved of historical wounds.
I have no sympathy for Hamas whatsoever. They oppressed and murdered their own people, the Fatah faction, in a grab for power. Although Arab states such as Egypt and Jordan express token solidarity with the Gaza Palestinians, none of them will mourn the passing of Hamas.
Is a peace treaty between Israelis and Palestinians even possible after a half century of violence and rancor? Doubtful in the foreseeable future.
Meanwhile, this long-festering conflict between two tiny ethnic groups over the tiniest real estate on the planet holds the rest of the world in thrall.
I'm no military expert, but if Isreal can come in and basically conquer Gaza in a matter of days, I would think that they have the military capability to secure their border with Gaza and set up patrols to guard against these rocket attacks. God knows they have the helicopters to setup such a security buffer. Would it be more expensive, more burdensome? Undoubtely so. Would it mean more Isreal soldier casualties? Almost assure. But at the end of the day, these soldiers have accepted this fate, that they may lose their lives in defense of thier homelands, and Isreal is expending the same resources with these incursions. Who doesn't have a choice are the women and children in Gaza whose only fault is being alive. It doesn't matter to me if there's an ammunition dump under where they live, they're still innocent civilians who are targeted, and if you deny that they are targeted then the casualties just don't register to you. Killing children is still inexcusable if there's a ton of rockets under his feet. In closing, I leave you with this, the death of 5 whites has been retaliated with the death of 500 darker peoples, the same situation occurs in Sudan and there's international outrage, the Isrealis perpetrate this and the US even refuses to call for a ceasefire!
ReplyDeleteEveryone is sympathetic to the plight on innocent civilians (unless of course they happen to be innocent Israeli civilians, in which case they are getting what they deserve).
ReplyDeleteAs far as whether Israel's response is "proportionate" or "appropriate," the rational Western mind simply cannot begin to understand what Hamas is all about.
On Meet the Press yesterday, David Gregory read an excerpt from a book by panelist Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic, who wrote about Nizar Rayyan, the Hamas leader who was killed by Israel during the current offensive (along with at least two of his four wives, but notice how Al Jazeera described him as dying with "14 members of his family," failing to note the fact that he had four wives). Goldberg, who had interviewed Rayyan, wrote:
"The question I wrestle with constantly is whether Hamas is truly, theologically implacable. That is to say, whether the organization can remain true to its understanding of Islamic law and God's word and yet enter into a long-term nonaggression treaty with Israel. I tend to think not, though I've noticed over the years a certain plasticity of belief among some Hamas ideologues. ... There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: `The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel.' There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. `Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God.' ... What are our crimes? I asked Rayyan. `You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah,' he said. `Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God.' Can Israel achieve deterrence with someone like that?"
I have add Aron's Israel Peace Weblog to our link list. Here is an interesting article from this website.
ReplyDeleteEgypt in essence told the Hamas that letting the previous ceasefire expire was dumb and it was dumber still to start firing rockets into Israel.
ReplyDeleteLet's not go into the whole tit for tat history of these battleground states. Let's look at simply this instance.
It boils down to the Hamas choosing to be provocative with Israel and Israel accepting the bait.
It's hard to fault Israel for taking the bait. The initial Egyptian response was something like saying "duh, what did you expect".
I have relatives that live near the border with Canada. I can not imagine our government sitting idle if Canadians fired 500 rockets into Detroit and killed a few people. Particularly if the government of Canada is directly behind and in support of the attacks.
You can bet that we would respond with overwhelming force even against Canada who has been a friend to us for years.
It would be nice to think that we would have the decency to drop papers on areas likely to get bombed to rubble, but, I don't know that we would.
We would probably just bomb the crap out of them so they don't ever dare raise a rocket launcher to us again.
If the bombing didn't stop them we would invade them and dismantle them from the inside out.
If that didn't work for long enough and enough people were dying or we simply lose hope of it ending, I wouldn't be surprised to see tactical nukes falling.
Under no circumstances would we simply shrug and leave when international "pressure" is applied and people told us to lay off of them. Not if they are still firing on us.
To expect anything different is to expect an irrational response.
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. This is just a fact and it goes back to thousands of years, before the arrival of the Jews. Then King Herod came. He was an arab from an arab mother and could not be a Jew (even though Jews claim he is a Jew). At any rate Jews wanted him dead. Then Jesus came. He was a Jew. Every sensible Jew saw the change to the better and converted. Then Mohammad came, and sensible Jews saw more change for the better and converted some more. Some of the Jews converted to Christians, converted again to become Muslims. Who is a Jew? The Poles and East Europeans that were rejected by America and came killing they fellow converted Jews claiming that God sent them? And then claimed to be Israelis? please someone enlighten me
ReplyDeleteYou guys pretty much nailed it!
ReplyDeleteI find it surprising that the press (regardless of who you look at) have HAMAS as the victim in the current round of Bomb tag! As I see it Israel has the lead in this game to date.
There was a truce, HAMAS then decided to end it and start propelling rockets over into Israel, so the Israelis should turn the other cheek? Please they will retaliate or haven't these guys been paying attention to the last 50 YEARS.
Joe had an Idea there and for a second I actually thought of it also. This war is sad and It will end when everybody is dead, unfortunately.
The analysis seems so post-modern and devoid of actual history. Anti-antisemitism - Theodore Herzl's solution, the rise of Zionism; Mapai's actions in Prague, the Ha 'avara, the breaking of an embargo, the rise of the Third Reich, the holocaust, the Balfour Agreement, the sudden creation of a state - with no intention of recognizing the blood brothers and sisters already there....(not all are Ashkonasi - European Jews - many are Safardic - Arab Jews) the ideology suppresses those in Gaza, violence from the beginning, slaughter in Gish (1949)...constant unrest...war...the PLO...Hamas....the world is in need of Historie (not mere Geshicte - one's version of reality....)....this current/past conflict - the death - the grief - does not disappear because we do not tell it...
ReplyDeletePerhaps a shorter account ...
ReplyDeleteAn eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
(Mahatma Gandhi)
facts:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/20150
http://www.ymouk.org/?p=275
"Please someone enlighten me"
ReplyDeleteIf you were completely ignorant, it would be an easier job, but as it is, the bullshit you've accepted as fact would have to be unloaded to make space and there's the question of where to put it all.
Why is it that argumentum ad website is the last refuge of scoundrels?
"the world is in need of Historie (not mere Geshicte - one's version of reality....)"
ReplyDeleteApparently someone's in need of a dictionary - or an education. The word is die Geschichte and it doesn't mean opinion (Meinung) it means history.
Are you trying to make a point?
Capt. Fogg: Yeah, what you said. Mind if I link to this? I think you've pretty much said everything I wanted to say, only better than I would have said it, because I'm too torn up about it. I know all the damn history -- history's kind of what I do for a living some of the time -- and I have Israeli friends living in Israel, and Palestinian friends living here who have relatives there (and other places in the ME). A friend of mine is not all that long out of the IDF and I can tell from things she's been writing lately that she's terrified of being called back up.
ReplyDeleteI'm also angered by the incredible ignorance I've been seeing around, especially when evinced by American bloggers (of which I am not one). The blue-ribbon example so far has been a blogger who said, "Yeah, I know the British wrote some stuff, but what business of theirs was it?"
With all that in my personal context, I can't even think straight on the subject, let alone write anything cogent...
I can identify with this. It's impossible not to be conflicted and impossible not to be frustrated by the smug simple mindedness that seems to be one of our oldest institutions.
ReplyDeleteThis piece was posted elsewhere and I've been excoriated for taking Israel's side, which I don't think is quite true, but people seem not to be able to see the situation through their biases and not to be able to read what I said through the same dark glass.