Here is a very partial list of radical hate groups that support anti-abortion violence, anti-Semitism, homophobia, racism, sexism, white supremacy, and the overthrow of our constitutional form of government:
American Center for Law and Justice. Headed by Marion "Pat" Robertson, this group advocates the assassination of foreign leaders, the subjugation of women, and the oppression of gays.Source: The Skeptic Tank
America's Promise Ministries. An anti-Semitic group that claims white people as the "chosen ones."
Army of God. An underground network of terrorists who believe violence is an acceptable way to end abortion. In 1984, Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun received death threats by mail from this group. Several members, Eric Rudolph, James Kopp, and Clayton Waagner, are serving prison sentences for bombing, murder, and anthrax threats, respectively.
Aryan Nations. A group that advocates anti-Semitism and the murder of homosexuals.
Bill Bright, Campus Crusade for Christ. A hate group that seeks to replace the Constitution and establish their own theocracy.
Christian Association of PrimeTimers. This group scams senior citizens out of their retirement money to finance the abolition of the U.S. Constitution and the installation of a theocracy.
Chalcedon Foundation. Seeks to abolish the Constitution and install themselves as leaders of a theocracy.
Christian Coalition. Headed by Ralph Reed, this anti-abortion, pro school prayer, pro creationism group seeks the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid with tax dollars.
Christian Reconstructionism. This hate group seeks the overthrow the U.S. Constitution and the establishment of a theocracy. Advocates the execution of racial minorities and homosexuals.
Citizens for Excellence in Education. Another pro school prayer, pro creationism group that seeks the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid with tax dollars.
Collegiate Network. An anti sex education group that seeks the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid with tax dollars.
Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (Ft. Lauderdale FL). Led by D. James Kennedy, this hate group advocates violence towards gays and women and seeks to establish their own brand of theocracy.
Council for Conservative Citizens. Foments racism with a special focus on anti-Semitism.
Council for National Policy. Seeks to abolish the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and impose their own theocracy.
Focus on the Family. One of the most vocal, best-known homophobic groups in America.
Jack Chick Publications. Publishes bizarre comic books that allege a world-wide conspiracy of "Satanists" and "witches" who kidnap, torture, murder, and eat babies.
Jim Wickstrom. The leader of a cult with strong ties to “Posse Comitatus”, a group that blames abortions on "Jewish Doctors" who then blast aborted fetuses into outer space [not a joke!].
Ku Klux Klan. This infamous hate group has participated in anti-abortion demonstrations in Melbourne and Pensacola Florida. Perhaps an obvious point: Many terror and intimidation tactics used against abortion clinics have been borrowed from the Klan.
Landmark Legal Foundation. Advocates the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid with tax dollars.
Lifeline Long Distance. Finances domestic terrorist organizations like Operation Rescue and the so-called Army of God.
Operation Rescue. A domestic terrorist organization linked to the murder of abortion providers. Currently headed by Troy Newman, a front man for Randal Terry, this group preaches hatred and the submission of women to male masters. The cult's leadership advocates the overthrow of the Constitution and the removal of women from the work force.
Parental Freedom in Education. Their goal is to replace public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools financed with tax dollars.
Pete Peters. Claims Jews are conspiring to control the world with the United Nations taking over the United States.
Policy Research Institute. Demands the creation of tax-subsidized religious schools and the replacement of all public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools.
Phineas Priesthood. Advocates the murder of mixed race couples. The "Phineas" title is used by numerous Christian hate groups in the United States.
Promise Keepers. Advocates the violent "taking back" of male dominion over women.
Rodney O. Skurdal. Advocates the removal of women from the workplace.
Stormfront White Nationalists. Yesterday, this online hate group praised James von Bunn, the gunman who killed a security guard at the Holocaust Museum. The scariest part: This website has a huge following … estimated to be in the millions. [In the comment thread below this post, Captain Fogg supplies this information: “Don Black is the "proprietor" of Stormfront. His son Derek was elected as a member of Palm Beach County's Republican Executive Committee [my bold] last year although the party Chairman refused last December to seat him, but it was only because of the Jews, says close friend David Duke.”]
The Army of God. Like Operation Rescue, this is a domestic terrorist group that has claimed responsibility for several abortion clinic bombings, including the infamous double-bombing intended to murder rescue workers aiding victims of the first blast.
The Bradly Foundation. Advocates the replacement of public schools with fundamentalist Christian schools paid with tax dollars.
The Church of Jesus Christ Christian. Similar to Aryan Nations and the Ku Klux Klan, this anti-Semitic group that advocates violence.
The Heritage Foundation. Finances racist research.
The Institute for Historic Review. An anti-Semitic hate group that denies the Holocaust.
The Order. A hate group that focuses on racism and abortion.
The Sword and the Cross. An anti-Semitic hate group that operates worldwide.
Traditional Values Coalition. An anti-homosexual hate group that denies the separation between church and State.
U. S. Tax Payers Party. Supports the domestic terrorist group, Operation Rescue.
Westboro Baptist Church. Headed by Fred Phelps, this group pickets churches, schools, businesses, and military funerals to rail against homosexuality. Unbelievers are labeled as “faggots."
White Aryan Resistance. A hate group led by Tom Metzger, who advocates abortion for non-white mothers and forced birth at gun point for white mothers.
Virginia Trinitarian Pro-nomian Alliance (VTPA). A hate group seeking to overthrow the Constitution and remove the Bill of Rights to install their own theocracy.
It's sad that this is a "very partial list" - there are a lot of hate-filled people out there.
ReplyDeletePart of me pities these people; they are so misguided, so lost, so uncertain of themselves in an uncertain world that they pursue radicalism - and think doing so is completely justified. It must be sad to be that lost, though I'm sure they are all blissfully ignorant.
More than that though, I'm concerned about what can be done to prevent such disturbed people from acting on their dark desires. There needs to be a national discussion if we are to avoid another disaster, but how do we get there?
I know I harp on torture a lot, but the discussions of domestic terrorism fit in with it so well.
ReplyDeleteThese radicals are acting out of pure hatred. Though torture defenders would not easily admit it, they think torture is justified for the same reason - they hate.
What's sad is that so much of that hatred probably comes from self-loathing. These terrorists and these torturers and torture supporters don't know how to handle a complex world in which nothing is certain. They grow distrustful of that world. They grow to hate it. But much of what they hate is their own inability to handle that world.
Hate is easy. Love and caring, kindness and support - those are hard; they take work, and while they always win out in the end, it's sad that so many people are ready to take the easy way out.
Octo, while I agree with you on a lot of these folks, it is a big stretch to put the James Dobson types in the same group as the Fred Phelps of the world.
ReplyDeleteYou may not agree with their viewpoint, coming from Christianity as they do, but the majority of folks connected to ministries like Campus Crusade, Promise Keepers, Focus, etc., are responsible for some of the best relief work done around the world.
Not everyone associated with Christian based ministries deserves to be tarred with such a broad brush, just because you may disagree with them on some issues.
Let's not underestimate the power of a recession/depression to radicalize great numbers of the poor, who are also at greatest risk from these religious predators.
ReplyDeleteThe layers of deceit laid down by the previous administration will grow a bumper crop of hate in this country.
Octo, you know I love you, but I gotta say I have major issues with this post. To compare a group like Promise Keepers to the Ku Klux Klan is just too much. Some of the groups on here, I feel you are completely justified, others, not so much!
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian and I do not hide that fact. What I find morally wrong, you may find acceptable. It doesn't necessarily make you right and me wrong. It makes us different. There is a huge difference between believing abortion is wrong to bombing a clinic. I completely agree with Dave, to paint everyone with the same brush is wrong. I could go on to argue the merits of some of these but I think you get my point without having to do that. You take a few very stupid and extreme radicals and compare them with groups that do a lot of good. I'm not sure where you got the list or if you made it up yourself but you really should look into them before putting them down. We tend to disagree on a lot and I expect this will be no different, but I really feel if you did a little investigating, you'd find out that some of them are some morally based groups with ideas that just differ than yours. You confuse anti-abortion, homophobia and sexism with morals and principles. To fear them is being paranoid.
Hi Jennifer, you know I love too, and my post was not meant to offend. So let me direct my response to both you and Dave Miller, whose blog I also read, admire, and respect.
ReplyDeleteI admit. There is a regrettable preponderance of Christian ministries cited in this post, and my intent here is not to disparage faith and good works. The selection criteria is very specific: Religious leaders and groups that have a history of espousing bigotry and intolerance.
This website, underwritten by Dobson, promotes a clear anti-gay message. Dobson opposes all legislation aimed at ending discrimination based on sexual orientation, and his views on homosexuality are not shared by the mental health community.
Dobson advocates the physical punishment of children: "As long as the tears represent a genuine release of emotion, they should be permitted to fall. But crying quickly changes from inner sobbing to an expression of protest ... Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining, and the change can be recognized in the tone and intensity of his voice. I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears" [Dobson. The Strong-Willed Child. Living Books. pp. 235]. The mental health community disapproves of physical punishment.
In 2007, Dobson was one of 25 evangelicals who called for the ouster of Rev. Richard Cizik from his position at the National Association of Evangelicals because Cizik had taken a stance urging evangelicals to take global warming seriously.
Dobson stated in his "Letter from 2012 in Obama's America" that an Obama presidency would lead to mandated homosexual teachings in all schools; the banning of firearms in all states; the end of the Boy Scouts, home schooling, Christian schools, Christian adoption agencies, and talk radio; widespread pornography on television; mandatory bonuses for gay soldiers; terrorist attacks across America; the nuclear bombing of Tel Aviv; the conquering of eastern Europe by Russia; the end of health care for Americans over 80; out-of-control gasoline prices; infanticide; and complete economic disaster in the United States, among other catastrophes. I would characterize this letter as fear-mongering, inflammatory, and delusional.
Jennifer and Dave, I respect faith and good works, but good works do not exonerate a person who advocates the subjugation of women, the criminalization of their reproductive rights, and the persecution of certain minorities. Not meaning to be disrespectful, but this is no Dobson's Choice, in my opinion.
Octo,
ReplyDeleteExcellent work. I want to say, having followed many of these groups for a long time, there is not one on here that I don't think belongs on the list. Sure, some are worse and some are slightly better, but they are all purveyors of mindless hate. So please, don't back off.
Unfortunately, it is going to take a couple more of these horrible acts before most people are able to confront the degree to which this situation is out of control. There are some ugly times coming.
For another source, listing many hate groups, people might want to take a look at this interactive map from the Southern Poverty Law Center:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp
Funny how most of these groups have real Christian or patriotic sounding names. It's scary as hell knowing these nutjobs actually believe their hateful views are God's will or good for America.
ReplyDeleteOcto, I do not take offense....you know me better than that! LOL
ReplyDeleteYou make some good points about some of the sites and I am not informed enough about them to comment on them.
Green Eagle.....I would like to hear how you can fault Promise Keepers. I am a little sensitive regarding that one because my husband was going to join that group. If you read the site, it does not in any way advocate the violent "taking back" of male dominion over women. So if he would have joined would that have meant that my husband wanted dominion over me? What do you find fault with in the core values?
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Promise Keepers is a Christ-centered organization dedicated to introducing men to Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, and then helping them to grow as Christians. This is mainly accomplished through our Seven Promises and our men's conference ministry. Millions of men have participated since 1990 when PK first began.
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What exactly do you find fault with in the seven promises?
"Mindless Hate" Exactly where do you find that in Promise Keepers?
Sorry Octo, I didn't mean to take over the thread, but he did indeed hit a nerve by saying every single one should be on that list.
Green Eagle: "So please, don't back off."
ReplyDeleteI am not backing off but I know Jennifer, who has a good heart and whose motives I would never question. Same for Dave. Their concerns deserve a respectful response.
In fact, it is regrettable that there are a number of Christian ministries mentioned in this post. I would have wished otherwise. "Love thy neighbor" and "blessed are the meek" are powerful, transforming concepts. Dobson, in my opinion, is neither a good Christian nor a good psychologist. Most mental health professionals consider him a charlatan.
And I live SURROUNDED by people who think your list is a perfect one to join.
ReplyDeleteMany of these groups end up being hijacked or used by those that want political gain. When Promise Keepers march, rest assured plenty of office holders and office seekers will be along for the ride and the photo op.
ReplyDeleteI hope this helps puts matters into perspective: In a paper called “Toxic to Democracy: Conspiracy Theories, Demonization & Scapegoating,” Chip Berlet states
ReplyDelete“Dualism is an overarching theme or “metaframe” in which people see the world as divided into forces of good and evil. Scapegoating is a process by which a person or group of people are wrongfully stereotyped as sharing negative traits and are singled out for blame for causing societal problems, while the primary source of the problem is overlooked or absolved of blame. Demonization, a process through which people target individuals or groups as the embodiment of evil, facilitates scapegoating (…) Apolcalyticism, also a metaframe, involves the expectation that dramatic events are about to unfold during which a confrontation between good and evil will change the world forever and reveal hidden truths. Apocalyptic Aggression occurs when scapegoats are targeted as enemies of the “common good,” and this can lead to discrimination and acts of violence [3].
Cynical movement leaders then can hyperbolize false claims in a way that mobilizes overt forms of discrimination. People who believe conspiracist allegations sometimes act on those irrational beliefs , and this has concrete consequences in the real world. Angry allegations can quickly turn into aggression and violence targeting scapegoated groups (…) Even when conspiracist theories do not center on Jews, homosexuals, people of color, immigrants or other scapegoated groups, they still create an environment where racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice , bigotry, and oppression can flourish [p. 47].
You can find the full paper by clicking here. Highly recommended reading.
Note how the opening chorus of Christian voices has everything to do with the idea that the world is picking on them for things they are the only ones to have forgiven themselves for. Yes, of course, history is all about how those heretics, apostates, Jews, free-thinkers, scientists and witches have been persecuting the "Christ-centered."
ReplyDeleteJust as it lies as a yoke around the necks of Muslims of good will to denounce the evils done in the name of Islam, the only effective voices against the age-old evils of Christian agencies would, if there were many, come from professed Christians.
I'm not hearing much of that - if any at all. What I am hearing is defensiveness, what I am seeing is hand washing and buck passing and denial of any amount of responsibility. Maybe it's a correlate of Gresham's law, but bad Christians are fast pushing good ones off the market.
I don't want to hear "Christ centered" when it means self-centered and self-impressed and self-righteous. What I do want to hear, and never will is that "We at the XYZ church have the Christian humility to think that we may wrong, so we're not going to kill you or even try to make your life miserable because you disagree with what we hold on nothing more than faith to be absolute truth. We deplore violence, bigotry and persecution and we prefer to teach by example.
I'm tired of being lectured about decency and morality by people for whom it's a supreme effort requiring miraculous intervention by supernatural agencies.
The header ends up tarring groups that work for orderly and Constitutional political change, and mere cartoonists, into the same "terrorist" category as the KKK/etc.
ReplyDeleteThe "hate" in some of these groups is mild to the point that if they are included, why not the NAACP which explicitly demands that people be discriminated against on the basis of skin color? I guess one kind of "hate" is OK and other is not.
And yes, Dave Miller said it best.
ReplyDelete"The "hate" in some of these groups is mild"
ReplyDeleteThanks, I needed a laugh. Labeling something Christian is tar and tar enough, considering history, and if you spent as much time doing some introspective research as you do looking for sin and offense in others, you might see the humor too.
"I guess one kind of "hate" is OK and other is not."
Sure, as long as it's mild hate - you said as much yourself. But if your looking for an audience that will buy the false equivalence it's not here.
Christianity in all its forms has a lot of foul baggage accumulated over the millennia and I don't see any sign of you putting it down, apologizing for it and disassociating yourself from it - only more of the guiltless pose, self-absolution and more of blaming the Jews, secular humanists, people who don't like your pagan rules. It's always some other people's fault, isn't it?
Of course it doesn't mater what you do - you said the magic words so God loves you and is coming back to kill all those other people - those hateful people.
Very interesting read, Octo, thanks!
ReplyDelete"Scapegoating is a process by which a person or group of people are wrongfully stereotyped as sharing negative traits and are singled out for blame for causing societal problems, while the primary source of the problem is overlooked or absolved of blame."
That could be taken different ways depending on who reads it. I found that interesting.
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Capt Fogg....You make a valid point regarding Christians denouncing people like Fred Phelphs and KKK, etc. If you look around, not at the radical Christian groups on this list but as everyday Christians like myself, you would see that bombing an abortion clinic or just about anything that Fred Phelps does is horribly wrong and not acceptable in our eyes. The problem with some of these groups is that they get so much attention that when people hear the word Christian that is automatically what they think of. I value life and think killing people (like the abortion doctor) is not only despicable, but also very hypocritical. My Christian friends feel the same way. I believe we are the rule, not the exception. (Got that line from a movie) :-)
"Christ centered" ....Maybe in some of these groups, you would find self centered people, but that is NOT what Christianity is about. It is not about judgement either. I'm thinking I may need to do a post on this...I've taken enough of your comment thread....LOL
Dmarks: "The header ends up tarring groups that work for orderly and Constitutional political change ... "
ReplyDeleteIf your definition of "orderly and Constitutional change" means changing the law to deprive women of their reproductive health care rights, returning them to the days of back room abortion butchers, forcing them to bear dead babies against their will, forcing them to delay chemotherapy just because they are pregnant, turning our gay brothers and sisters into second-class citizens, denying gays the same equal protection under law as enjoyed by other classes of citizens, forcing school prayers on people who do not want it, using the tax money of non-believers to finance the religious education of believers, making one religious doctrine the law of the land and thereby oppressing other persons of faith ... if this is your definition of "orderly and Constitutional change" then those groups on the above list BELONG on the above list.
I'll take these one at a time....
ReplyDeleteRegarding point one...abortion. Just because a group or individual does not believe in abortion or that it should be legal does not qualify as hate. That would be like saying because you feel it is a woman's right that you are a murderer's advocate. It is just a difference of opinion that is not as black and white as some make it out to be. As much as I am pro-life, I don't see it ever happening. Where I find the most difficulty is late term abortions, no parental contact and I feel there should be some compromise where they should have to go to a counseling session where they will be told straight out what will happen and discuss the consequences. Does it have to be all or nothing?
Gay....This one is a bit more difficult. I can feel being gay is wrong without wanting to deny them the same rights or treating them as second class citizens. I may differ from these groups here because I feel they should have the same rights as straight people do. (taxes, death rights, etc) Gay "marriage" (definition)is where I draw the line, but I'm not going to get into that now. I did a piece that covered everything I felt about that a while ago.
School prayer...This is one that I actually agree with you on. For the most part I agree with separation of church and state. There are a few things here and there where I may differ, but for the most part, we see eye to eye on this one. There is no official religion for America and until there is you cannot tell people what or what not to believe.
I think sometimes we get caught up in the black and white of things like some of these groups on here and that is what forces us so far apart.
"There is no official religion for America and until there is you cannot tell people what or what not to believe."
ReplyDeleteWell that does set you apart a bit. The hullabaloo about "taking God out of public life" is a smokescreen for the effort to declare some version of Christianity as the basis of our government and effectively ending freedom of religion. It has to mentioned that the most powerful opponent in history of Democracy has been Christianity and that we fought a war with a Christ-centered King in order to obtain it. In fact the Vatican once excommunicated people for voting.
But you have to agree, if you believe what you said, that "drawing the line" as concerns private consensual behavior that harms no one and only offends religious beliefs, is not the business of the government to forbid.
Again, those Christians brave enough to admit they don't speak for God, have an imperfect understanding of God at best and therefore will allow their fellow humans to choose their own family arrangements don't get too much argument from me even if they insist the Gospel of John has anything to do with Jesus.
Octo said: "If your definition of "orderly and Constitutional change" means changing the law to deprive women of their reproductive health care rights"
ReplyDeleteNone of the groups who oppose abortion are seeking this. They just oppose abortion, which happens after the biological process of reproduction happens. To switch a discussion from "abortion" to "reproductive rights" is to move from one subject to another.
To get back to your point, whether or not someone uses legal, Constitutional methods to change laws is a different issue compared to the change they are making. You are confusing the two.
"if this is your definition of "orderly and Constitutional change" then those groups on the above list BELONG on the above list."
Erm. Civics 101. No. The law of the land provides for a method of changing laws and policy. This is a protected civil liberty, in fact. A legal and Constitutionally protected method. This is very different from the illegal methods such as using using terrorism to cause change.
Jennifer, Captain Fogg makes a point that concerns me as well:
ReplyDelete"... those Christians brave enough to admit they don't speak for God, have an imperfect understanding of God at best and therefore will allow their fellow humans to choose their own family arrangements don't get too much argument from me ..."
If I understand Christian theology at all, the first sin is the sin of pride, and perhaps it is prideful and therefore sinful to think one knows the "Will of God" or speaks for God or has some monopoly on moral judgement that sets oneself as apart and superior over others. For me, this is the sin of pride or, as we understand pride in clinical terms - narcissism. Viewed from this perspective, James Dobson, Ralph Reed, and Randal Terry are not humble servants of God but arrogant and dangerous demagogues with a callous disregard for fellow human beings.
I have always believed that one cannot grow in emotional, intellectual, or spiritual terms without humility, and humility is the litmus test of spiritual growth.
Dmarks: "The law of the land provides for a method of changing laws and policy. This is a protected civil liberty, in fact. A legal and Constitutionally protected method."
ReplyDeleteThere is a also a principle of law that protects minorities from the caprices and whims of a majority, as stated in the 14th Amendment. Dmarks, you are deliberately ignoring a point I have tried to make about turning law-abiding citizens into criminals and/or second-class citizens. You are getting tedious and boring and taxing my patience. Either improve your reading comprehension or go away.
A few days ago a young man (16) killed himself because he was tired of hiding his gayness. I knew him because he mowed my yard and he mailed me a letter the day he hung himself.
ReplyDeleteDoes this country need more morals and values? Sure does! But we do not need moral and values that come from an organization and are used to exclude some, persecute others, and elevate the members with a sense of superiority.
That young man was a handsome, decent intelligent young man and I will cherish his letter for the rest of my life.
It seems our schools focus on Advanced Placement Students at the expense of the masses, our economy focuses on the wealthholders at the expense of the wealthlaborers, and our morals, our values, and our compassion, is only for benefit of those that belong to the same church and beliefs that we do.
Its fine to lump RINO's, conservative democrats, liberals, and progressives, with tree huggers, abortion doctors, anarchists, and PETA...but you can't do the same with the other side.
The more I pay attention to politics the more liberal I get and the more conservatvie Obama and the Democrats look! :)
A doctor, a security guard, and now a dear young man all lost their lives for what?
"Well that does set you apart a bit."
ReplyDeleteThe more you get to know me you will see that. I definitely lean right, but I try and see things with an open mind and realistic approach.
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Octo.....Pride is a sin, at least having too much. I do not try and speak for God. I read the Bible and ask God to help me learn what I need to know. I am sure life experiences go a long way in that too. I actually agree with you when I hear people, preaching that gays are wrong and evil, etc. I would never think to pass judgement that way, but that doesn't mean that I can't still feel something is morally wrong. God is the only one that can pass judgement and personally that is between God and the individual person. I am really not familiar with the three men you mention, so you could be right, I honestly don't know. Some people take it to the level where they play God and I don't condone that at all. Just as I don't want people trying to tell me that I am wrong for thinking that being gay is wrong. I think we all have the right to feel the way we do, it's our actions that should be held accountable. For instance...(I am using gay, just because that's what we've been discussing. I have the right to feel it is wrong. You have the right to feel it is right. I don't have the right to tell them how they should or shouldn't live. I have the right to not have it thrown at my kids in public school. (movie that was shown in our schools a while ago without permission). It is when we overstep these bound that things begin to cause trouble.
I must say it is so nice to discuss issues without name calling and pettiness! :-)
"Its fine to lump RINO's, conservative democrats, liberals, and progressives, with tree huggers, abortion doctors, anarchists, and PETA...but you can't do the same with the other side."
ReplyDeleteDon't link all those "on the other side" together. Some are as different as day and night. We all have individual beliefs and dislike it just as much as liberals do, when we are lumped together as one.
TAO a liberal....I always knew it was in there! :-)
Jennifer,
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Promise Keepers go, I suggest that you examine the following, from NOW:
http://www.now.org/issues/right/promise/mythfact.html
Further, let me say this: In my 40 plus years of following political extremists, I have noticed one ubiquitous characteristic of right wing political groups, which I have come to refer to as the existence of exoteric and esoteric doctrines: in brief, that they all have an alleged, mild version of their beliefs, and a much more extreme version which is only revealed to followers. Thus, for example the Klan and people like David Duke have a line about equal rights for all groups which serves to hide their real agenda. I could go on to cite other examples; as I say, this characteristic is ubiquitous.
The promise keepers have never held much interest to me, but as I have listened to their leaders, I see the same thing at work: a seemingly benign public program hiding an extreme, in this case, anti-woman, hard right agenda.
You say your husband almost joined the promise keepers. The fact that he didn't join leads me to believe that you and he also know that there is more there than meets the eye.
Jennifer,
ReplyDeleteI am tired of watching the stupidity that passes as political debate today.
We have split up our automakers, we have propped up our banks, and we have watched as 1.3 trillion dollars in personal wealth disappear. The stock market is recovering, the banks are loaning again, and yet unemployment is high. It will stay high because we are in a jobless recovery. For all practical purposes we have lost our middle class and we have lost that which made it possible to raise ones self from lower to middle to upper class; the opportunities are not there any longer.
I just read an article about in the future we will all be renters and migrate to where the jobs are. To me THAT destroys the moral fabric of this country, destroys families, and makes us even more dependent on government.
From superpower to a nation of Hobo's riding the train in search for out next job.
This isn't the America that I believe we are capable of creating and I cannot believe that we are not intelligent enough any longer to find a better way...
I am no liberal...I am a radical! :)
Actually your wrong about why my husband didn't join the promisekeepers. I really didn't want to get into it because it's not anyone's business, but it was because of my health, not because of the group itself. You show a website but what exactly makes it true? You believe it because you want to. What I've learned when he was looking into it was nothing like the way the website paints it. If I really wanted to I could probably find a way to make Mother Theresa look bad. Does that mean that your going to believe me? Because a website says so? A website like that is not going to convince me that there is anything wrong with it. I'm not going to debate this anymore, because frankly, we aren't getting anywhere and it's silly to keep going back and forth.
ReplyDeleteOcto, it's actually been enjoyable and as Arnold says.....I'll be back! (different post of course) :-)
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"I am tired of watching the stupidity that passes as political debate today. "
Amen to that! It gets mighty tiresome.
Radical....yeah I can believe that!! :-)
May the force be with you, Jennifer.
ReplyDeleteOcto: "Dmarks, you are deliberately ignoring a point I have tried to make about turning law-abiding citizens into criminals and/or second-class citizens"
ReplyDeleteI ignored it because it is a very weak point. So much legislation does what you say, including smoking bans and strict gun laws. (You probably favor the gun bans that turn law-abiding citizens into criminals, because you aren't consistenty) So? That is what legislation does. Your point that it is terrorism to seek legislative change like this is beyond weak.
Also, in a previous comment you said "denying gays the same equal protection under law as enjoyed by other classes of citizens" belonged under the terrorist/hate-group label.
By this standard, the Obama administration is a terrorist group, right? They did file that DOMA brief defending the ban on gay marriage. You probably won't include them, because you aren't being consistent.
Yes, I "tax your patience" because I find your labelling of mainstream peaceful political groups as "terrorists" to be dubious. And no doubt it makes certain conservative political groups into "terrorists" to push to ban gay marriage, while it is perfectly all right for the President to insist on such a ban himself. As long as the President has a D after his name.
Tao said: "Its fine to lump RINO's, conservative democrats, liberals, and progressives, with tree huggers, abortion doctors, anarchists, and PETA...but you can't do the same with the other side."
ReplyDeleteIt is erroneous and Limbaugh-esque to do this with either side.
Actually, this president with a D after his name is taking heavy criticism for being too damned R. Haven't you noticed?
ReplyDeleteThe Republican's tactical myth that Democrats are mindless followers is only a gambit with not enough evidence behind it to make it a weak argument. Doesn't that really have to be revised remembering that the people with R after their names were goose-stepping for Bush all these years and calling anyone that didn't a terrorist collaborator-appeaser-America hater?
Where you lost any remaining respect was with that other "R" trick of stating "you probably . . ." and proceeding as though it were an established fact. Cheap stuff that, and my opinions about gun control would probably surprise you.
"other "R" trick of stating "you probably . . ."
ReplyDeleteIt's not an R trick. I see D's do it at least as often. There's really no difference between the two sides in this regard. I figured it was a fair guess, because Octo left groups trying to abolish 2nd amendment rights off of this long list.
"calling anyone that didn't a terrorist collaborator-appeaser-America hater?"
As people who don't follow Obama are being called now. At least the America-hater part. I guess, by yoor logic, the people who make such claims are "Goose-stepping".
Or perhaps we should call out the "Goose-stepping" claim for what it really is: a thinly-veiled way to equate Bush with Hitler. After all, who is most famous for "goose-stepping".
Oh give me a break -- I don't know why you see what you claim to see, and I do know a false equivalence when I smell it -- it but if the current hate scene isn't 97.2% Right wing, I'm santa claus.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that schoolyard bullies do, is to bring their victims to the point of irrational rage and use it to pose as victims when the shit hits the fan. Your not dealing with kids here - too bad. You'll just have to get your lunch money somewhere else
YOu're just not willing to address the sins of the Bush years, the lies of the McCain/Palin charade or the huge hate broadcasting industry that's growing every day and that's why I'm not inclined to think of you as honest or worth engaging.
The calumny directed against Obama is largely specious, the protest against Bush's and the current GOP is based upon actions, upon blatant lies and infractions of law and of course that's the end of your equivalence game. Save it for Sunday School.
But you know, I'm typing this from the aft deck of my yacht, tied up at a beautiful marina, in a beautiful part of Florida and Dylan's on the stereo and both refrigerators are full and I really have no time for dealing with your childish games.
Bye
Jennifer,
ReplyDeleteI can make Mother Teresa look bad too. She was virulently anti-choice, and supported the hierarchy of the Catholic church in their most extreme pronouncements. We are all human beings, and we all have our failings. Despite the good that Mother Teresa did, she still was an obedient follower of an organization that has done tremendous harm around the world.
As for the Promise Keepers, it is not the website I linked to but my experience of four decades following these groups that leads me to believe that they are all alike under the surface, and that they all present a benign face to the world to get people to join them. I am sorry, but it is my observation that conservatism around the world exists on a mountain of moral corruption which is always present, regardless of the groups' cultivated innocuous appearance.
That is a harsh assessment, but I have been watching these people for forty years, and, having seen them grow from a negligible fringe phenomenon into a threat to our entire way of life, I have been proven justified in this long held belief.
DAVID LETTERMAN'S HATE, ETC. !
ReplyDeleteDavid Letterman's hate is as old as some ancient Hebrew prophets.
Speaking of anti-Semitism, it's Jerry Falwell and other fundy leaders who've gleefully predicted that in the future EVERY nation will be against Israel (an international first?) and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed, right?
Wrong! It's the ancient Hebrew prophet Zechariah who predicted all this in the 13th and 14th chapters of his book! The last prophet, Malachi, explains the reason for this future Holocaust that'll outdo even Hitler's by stating that "Judah hath dealt treacherously" and "the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this" and asks "Why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother?"
Haven't evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the recent filthy, hate-filled, back-stabbing tirades by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard and Kathy Griffin) against a leading evangelical named Sarah Palin, and explain why most Jewish leaders have seemingly condoned Palin's continuing "crucifixion"!
While David, Sandra, and Kathy are tragically turning comedy into tragedy, they are also helping to speed up and fulfill the Final Holocaust a la Zechariah and Malachi, thus helping to make the Bible even more believable!
(For even more stunning information, visit MSN and type in "Separation of Raunch and State" and "Bible Verses Obama Avoids.")
LMAO....Repsac3, does this look familiar?
ReplyDeleteI believe my comment was say what?
DAVID LETTERMAN'S HATE, ETC. !
ReplyDeleteDavid Letterman's hate is as old as some ancient Hebrew prophets.
Speaking of anti-Semitism, it's Jerry Falwell and other fundy leaders who've gleefully predicted that in the future EVERY nation will be against Israel (an international first?) and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed, right?
Wrong! It's the ancient Hebrew prophet Zechariah who predicted all this in the 13th and 14th chapters of his book! The last prophet, Malachi, explains the reason for this future Holocaust that'll outdo even Hitler's by stating that "Judah hath dealt treacherously" and "the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this" and asks "Why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother?"
Haven't evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the recent filthy, hate-filled, back-stabbing tirades by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard and Kathy Griffin) against a leading evangelical named Sarah Palin, and explain why most Jewish leaders have seemingly condoned Palin's continuing "crucifixion"!
While David, Sandra, and Kathy are tragically turning comedy into tragedy, they are also helping to speed up and fulfill the Final Holocaust a la Zechariah and Malachi, thus helping to make the Bible even more believable!
(For even more stunning information, visit MSN and type in "Separation of Raunch and State" and "Bible Verses Obama Avoids.")
You're psychotic - get the hell out of here before I stick your damned bible up your ass and throw you out.
ReplyDelete