The climate change deniers have their legions of climate change denier trolls out in force, and the trolls have been trashing and bashing the liberal blogosphere.
If there is proof of one hypothesis, one can well understand why climate scientists want to insulate themselves from reactionaries who would waste their time and harass them at every turn.
This is how reactionary wingers divert public attention at a crucial time: Hack into a computer system (illegal by the way), steal 20,000 e-mails (illegal by the way), invent a controversy, start conspiracy rumors, slander a scientist, make news and noise, distract, distract, distract. The bastards are damn good at it too. Witness how teabagging astroturfers derailed the healthcare reform debate. Now they are stalking global climate change (they love their see-oh-two more than life itself).
Right now I am having an argument with a liberal forum that cross-posts my articles. I complained about trolls, but the forum does not believe in censorship. "The trolls should be allowed to embarrass themselves," goes the argument.
I say: “Trolls never feel embarrassment, and intelligent readers don’t need a demonstration.” Furthermore, a forum that enables trolls enables their cause and merely intensifies the distractions with self-defeating tolerance.
Why the hell are liberal bloggers having this argument? Yup, another distraction, another casualty of the climate change deniers and their trolls. The deniers and their trolls have their own blogs and websites; why should we let them hijack and disrupt ours?
but the forum does not believe in censorship
ReplyDeleteI keep running into this attitude and it infuriates me. Yes, trolls have a right to freedom of expression. They don't have a right to hijack someone else's comment thread for that purpose. Any troll can start his own blog and say whatever he wants. It's not censorship for a site, such as the forum you mention, to decide what can and can't appear on their own site.
I have the right to put a bumper sticker for my favorite political cause on my car. I don't have a right to put it on your car, and it's not "censorship" if you refuse to let me do so.
Saw you over at Infidel's place.
ReplyDeleteSo many trolls, so little time! :o)
Lets look at trolls totally differently...
ReplyDeleteLets accept the hypothesis for now that there is a whole industry that has grown out of the desire to stop liberalism and anything resembling a liberal cause and or groups that promote liberal causes.
That would include Fox News, the conservative book mill, and all of the various political action committees and educational not for profits, talk show radio hosts, and cable provider ownership.
Trolls and the rightwing blogs are all part of this industry.
If you notice they all have the same theme, they all state the same story line, and they come out in force from Monday to Friday (9 am to 5pm).
If one single right wing blogger happens to cross the line then BOOM! The wrath of their little network goes after them...
That is the political reality of our democracy today! This is 'THE FORCE' that we must swim against to enact any form of change in our political system.
Don't look at trolls as mere malcontent nuisances, as individuals who out of their own desire decide to seek out liberal blogs and have a little fun...
Its orchestrated anarchy to control the democratic process and cirvumvent the will of the people...
You do not want to quiet them for they will go underground, but at the same time you do not want to ignore them BECAUSE THEY DO EXIST AND THEY DO EFFECT the general conversation.
What liberalism needs and by liberalism I am also including traditional conservative thought, is its own organizational structure and a grass roots rallying point...
You are truly in a battle of speaking truth to power...
Tao has a good point, because I run a Conservative Blog, but as you know I encourage Liberal views, and I get over-run by "trolls" and it's mostly during the 9am - 5pm hours. Makes one wonder if this is their "job" because what employer allows its employees to blog while on the clock?
ReplyDeletePam the reason they overrun your site is BECAUSE you allow Liberals to post...
ReplyDeleteThat is their whole point is to attack you, and now Patrick for your independence...
I'm with Infidel on this one. I think there comes a time when you have to boot the trolls out because they "don't have a right to hijack someone else's comment thread for that purpose."
ReplyDeleteI like to read posts at Pam's and Truth's but I rarely comment there anymore because the troll activity is so pervasive as to render any sort of sane debate moot.
And it is always the same repeated trollish rhetoric. I think they get some sort of sick sexual titillation from their behavior and encouraging them can't be healthy.
TAO: "You do not want to quiet them for they will go underground, but at the same time you do not want to ignore them BECAUSE THEY DO EXIST ..."
ReplyDeleteMaybe the reactionary fringe will go underground, or maybe they will simply become irrelevant … merely one more source of noise in an all too noisy world.
Of course, they exist as does chewing gum, dog droppings, and other sidewalk hazards, but an alert person learns to avoid them.
I find it ironic that more and more moderate conservatives and more and more moderate liberals want to share these conversations because all are falling victim to the same shrill attacks from extremists.
Moderate conservatives are not immune to vicious attacks from the fringes; these days, they are called RINOs with full contempt and scorn.
That is why I welcome them here … there are very few “safe” places for them to go. Civil and respectful conservations are valued; hatred and ridicule are not.
I think Infidel’s analogy is a good one. On your own car, you display he bumper stickers of your own choosing, and only you have that right. If someone defaces your bumper sticker, those acts fall under the category of vandalism. Same with blogs. I feel no obligation to provide a forum to those who would offend or oppress me ... or to any of our guests who ask the same consideration.
Yes, Rocky, the trolls are quite annoying. I have days when I can handle them easily and others when I just get so angry I want to scream. The delete button does get a lot of use, unfortunately. And it's also unfortunate that you and other kind, intelligent people like you, will stay away because of them. I will have to do a better job with my "Troll-Swatter" in the future.
ReplyDeletePam - I in no way was critisizing the way you and Truth run your blogs but only using them as an example of how quickly and effectively trolls can take over a decent conversation and turn it into a annoying circus.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, it looks like the trolls are burning themselves out and I've left comments as both your blogs recently.
Trolls get such obvious pleasure from creating havoc; it's sickening really.
And like I said, I don't really stay away. You and Truth and others are a daily read for me. I just have to pick and choose when to comment.
Rocky: Yes, I know you weren't criticizing only stating some obvious facts! :) You’re right, lately it does seem like the trolls have been scarce. Let’s hope they continue to do so and then all of us can enjoy civil discourse without interruption, which is what we’ve wanted all along! I won’t say “we won” just yet though.
ReplyDeletePamela: "Makes one wonder if this is their "job" because what employer allows its employees to blog while on the clock?"
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I share the same suspicions, and I am not alone. What I have noticed are not just time stamp consistencies, but the similarity of words and phrases used by different trolls with different screen IDs, suggesting that the messages are scripted. In some cases whole sentences, word for word.
One friend of mine traces ISP addresses and notes that two or more screen IDs often have the same ISP address.
Bottom line: There seem to be psy-ops operations seeding the entire Internet: YouTube, blogs, online forums, news sites that accommodate reader comments. In the liberal blogosphere, we refer to paid trolls as "Freepers."
I have reason to believe that at least one of your bookmarked sites is a Freeper (when I accused this blogger of being one about 10 months ago, he flew into a rage - and I started receiving anonymous hate mail after that incident).
Octo: No, you are not alone. However I don't have the ISP info, etc.; just mere suspicion.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you endured such behavior from someone on my list. Maybe you can privately email me that information. I hate to think any of my friends are being harassed.
On left-leaning blogs I read, there seems to have been a sharp increase in right-wing trolling during the last month or two.
ReplyDeleteA lot of it suggests an effort at a kind of psychological warfare rather than efforts to debate. They're trying to derail discussion, not participate in it.
The goal is to turn the comment thread into an argument with or about the troll instead of a discussion of the post (textbook example here). If that happens, the troll wins.
Nobody has any obligation to put up with this kind of thing. Trying to be civil and even-handed with creeps and bullies doesn't work.
The only solution I've found is comment moderation. Arguing with them or even insulting them gives them what they want -- it makes the discussion about them instead of whatever the posting was about.
Forget comment threads; the media stovepipe is willing, as always, to vent this smokescreen.
ReplyDeletePamela: “ I'm sorry you endured such behavior from someone on my list.”
ReplyDeleteNo need to feel any guilt by association. Actually, it started before we knew each other. … when Gray Haired Brother started up his blog, and got ganged up by the usual horde of bash-n-slashers. The exchange between me and the Freeper took place at another blog.
The Freeper in question is bookmarked at many blogs, not just yours. I didn’t mean to single you out (my comment was badly phrased); not to worry (if you are still curious, however, I’ll reveal what I know).
Infidel, psy-ops is exactly what it appears to be. We don't use comment moderation at the Zone, because all authors here have full administrative access to delete troll comments; thus, there are always eyes keeping watch around here (and we have a reputation to match).
Ah, yes, the Stark Tentacle of Removal.....
ReplyDeletePamela, I just checked your blog (after leaving a comment on stimulus economics). The Freeper in question is not blog rolled there. My mistake.
ReplyDeleteOcto: Thank you for checking it out and I'm relieved this "Freeper" is gone.
ReplyDelete