(Comment addressed to certain of Pam's readers)
My oldest daughter serves in the U.S. Army. She is a Major (and soon to be Lt. Colonel) assigned to the Pentagon. She served in the first Gulf War (@ KKMC), in Korea, 22 months in Kuwait, and THREE deployments in Iraq. She was awarded two Bronze Stars and 7 distinguished service citations for her effort.
During her second deployment in Iraq, her convoy was hit by a roadside IED device and attacked by insurgents. Yes, she drew her weapon and returned fire. Yes, she saw colleagues blown to bits, body parts flying everywhere, and she had PTSD for several months after her return.
DON’T TELL ME YOU HAVE A MONOPOLY ON SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY OR A PERSONAL CLAIM OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The families of solders serving overseas make many sacrifices. Duty has kept my daughter away from every major holiday and every family milestone, including births and funerals, for the past eight (8) years. Always the missing person at the holiday dinner table, families make plenty of damn sacrifices too.
SO DON’T TELL ME YOU HAVE A MONOPOLY ON SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY OR A PERSONAL CLAIM OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS.
If my daughter chooses a political career after military service, will rightwing political assassins such as yourselves debunk her accomplishments and demean her character?
One would think a distinguished military career should be beyond reach of mudslinging. Did you speak out against the shameless swift boat ads that demeaned John Kerry’s character and military record?
Did you speak out when the last administration smeared former Senator Max Cleland, a war hero who lost both legs in Vietnam?
Did you speak out when Tammy Duckworth, who lost both legs in Iraq, was smeared during her run for Congress as a Democrat?
Did you speak out? Where the hell were you? In your view, are there two kinds veterans? Are Conservatives and Republicans honored for their military service, while Liberals and Democrats, including the wounded and the dead, get bashed and trashed?
What hypocrites you are!
In this post, Truth101 was trying to make the same point. Did you bother to read it? Did you bother to read this:
The man has three Purple Hearts. Yet these right wing hatemongers told us he didn't deserve them. One lady even wrote a letter to my local paper attacking him for chasing a Viet Cong through the jungle and shooting him. She said it was cowardly (…) My Dad was awarded the Purple Heart. My Mom served in the U.S. Navy in WWII. People that disrespect the valor of Purple Heart recipients don't deserve respectful discourse and a patient ear.
Obviously, you did not read what Truth101 had to say or else you might have refrained from calling him a CLASSLESS SCUMBAG!
Every time you enter Pamela’s comment thread, you turn it into your own personal soapbox. You don’t read. You don’t listen. You don’t respect others.
Your constant belligerent and bellicose rants offend me. You are juvenile, loud-mouthed hooligans with a constant anger-management problem. This post by Pamela was supposed to be about civility. You defiled it.
(Had to get this off my chest ink the aquarium)
I say this meaning no offense to Pamela personally, I think she is a good person with good intentions, BUT.... Her blog visiters are totally out of control, immature teenagers with hateful stupid things to say, they scream and rant at the other guests like it is their OWN blog! This guy you refer to here has even told Pam she should start a new blog and keep it just for THEM(conservatives)! what a friggin joke! I don't comment there anymore and I feel bad because Pam has me on her bloglist. But it's all a group of young bigmouths, thats all. I know Pam is fed up too so I hope if she reads this I didn't say anything to hurt her feelings. I also did a post about her blog a few months ago.
ReplyDeleteThe linked thread at the Oracular Opinion is well worth a look to illustrate the nature of the problem. The comment which Octopüß reproduces here has already garnered a couple of responses from the foaming-at-the-mouth crowd, which completely ignore the substance of it and take cheap shots.
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing is rather like trying to debate one of those dolls that recites one of a small number of recorded phrases each time you pull the string on its back.
Octo, you realize you are trying to have a civilized adult conversation with childish trolls whose only wish is to rile you and get the response they did so they can continue to further aggrevate and inflame you.
ReplyDeleteThere's no point in it. I no longer comment there because of the trolls although I think Pam is a reasonable woman.
I think the only way to combat this is to NOT participate in any conversation where trolls are roaming free.
They should be continually deleted without comment and only allow those comments that are on topic and without rancor to stand.
Of course, that also means our posts much reflect the same restraint. We really must stop trying to bait them by using derogatory terms for the right. Otherwise we are just stooping to their level. We are better than that. We can address issues and ideas and even the rantings of certain individuals without in a factual, articulate manner.
The SwashZone is well populated with intelligent, educated, articulate beings.
Lets just keep the beach clean and the content here civil.
If any of us want to venture out to other shores like Vasco De Gama, go, explore but be warned; there be dragons there!
To confirm what Infidel753 says, here is one response to my above comment:
ReplyDeletethe malcontent said...
"I heard just about enough from all of you! (…) And show this this [sic] to your daughter, and ask her how she feels about it!"
And here my response to Malcontent:
Octopüß said...
“I already know how she feels because we have talked about it. Inasmuch as she is a Major (and soon to be Lt. Colonel) and therefore outranks you, she would say: If you can't respect the service of ALL Americans of ALL persuasions (especially those who have lost life and limb), then you have defiled and dishonored your own service."
rockync: "We really must stop trying to bait them by using derogatory terms for the right. Otherwise we are just stooping to their level."
That is what got me into trouble over the weekend. I criticized one of our own for being too inflammatory and took heat from both sides. Nevertheless, I still believe Internet civility is a moral cause worth fighting for.
What I learned thus far: There are moderate conservatives who are just as fed up with partisan divisions as we are. Their own party has abandoned them, and they deserve our outreach. That is why I stuck my tentacles out.
Finding the right ones to talk to, that is the challenge. Pamela does not deserve to be punished and caught in the crossfire, especially since she is trying to champion the same cause.
Nevertheless, point taken. Maybe I should stay home more often and attend to our own. Kitchen creations, anyone?
It's hard for me to make these decisions -- to return fire or not, to attempt to make their dishonesty, insanity and stupidity obvious to them or to their ilk or to let it go.
ReplyDeleteThis morning I wasted two hours responding to another chain letter insisting that Obama was never seen by anyone at Columbia -- quoting his professors and interviews on TV news.
Then I deleted it. He'll just go back to watching Fox telling him how he never was a professor at U of Chicago, had his tuition payed at Columbia by Muslim cohorts even though he didn't go there and all of that.
They don't exist in an alternate universe because they are ignorant, they do it because they want to be ignorant of anything that gets in the way of their cherished hatred. Nothing you said in that eloquent post will mean anything to them. They'll never for a moment consider that you might be right, that they may not be intelligent or well informed or even decent and they will fight to the death in the cause of anger for anger's sake.
Pamela can delete them if she wishes and that's really all she can do once the infestation arrives. You can't talk them away any more than you can talk away the Pox or the Plague and you certainly can't make a stupid person smart by any means.
Well it certainly surprised me to see the number of comments - that's more than I get in a month, but it seems like the national pastime amongst the mendacious mediocrities, who have assumed the title of Conservative because the Know Nothing Party has long since copyrighted the better name, is pretending to deliver snarky putdowns. Too bad they're only funny to other idiots.
ReplyDeleteI've been privileged to know quite a few 99.999 IQ percentile folks and I'm told they receive a much larger daily dose of such attempts to call them stupid than those of more humble abilities. I think we have that scenario played out eloquently - there and elsewhere.
Just to thank you for the response to the two righties at Pamela's site Octo. I admit I was setting them up for a response of my own but the one you gave them was better than I could have done.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks, TRUTH 101. What I noticed, the Republicans, who were abandoned by their own party and hunger for outreach (the ones I really want to talk to), seem to be hanging out at your place. Next time, I should pay more attention and visit you more often.
ReplyDeleteAnd my thanks to Captain Fogg for visiting Pamela's blog and leaving the most eloquent, heartfelt comment. Worth reading ... even if you have to stumble through brambles to get to it.
Thank you, but we both know it doesn't matter, the truth doesn't matter -- nothing matters and I've already had my daily dose of vapid snark from some Bozo, who having nothing to say about what I wrote at the Reaction, told me what I'd probably say to him and then criticized me as though I'd said it.
ReplyDeleteI'm eternally aware that the great horde of Republicans are stupid, insane and irredeemable and nothing anyone can do short of divine intervention can change it.
I don't write for them, I write for me, but again, thankful, I'm grateful that anyone reads it with appreciation.
I actually feel honored that Mal and SaraG won't even discuss with me, because they think I'm saturated in the Kool-Aid.
ReplyDeletePamela shut down the post.
I'm sorry Pamela!
I should just ignore them, but I egged them on, which just keeps them spewing worse than their last comment.
I won't stop commenting at Pamela's blog, unless she wants me to.
I will try and respond to what she writes, and ignore the screaming children.
I have a feeling she's not happy right now, and if I'm part of that, again, I'm sorry Pamela.
I'm also very fond of Pam, think she's kind and very bright. But I will not even go there until she gets her blog under control - and it is up to her to do it. Even when she deletetes, the offended party comes back and gives her a nasty time of it. Even with her deletions there are too many offensive comments left.
ReplyDeleteIf she would moderate nobody would be the wiser and the infestation would be stopped before it even begins.
Malcontent is a real sicko, the kind that goes postal. He needs some serious anger management counseling. I simply would not let someone like that on my blog.
My two cents from the snowy frozen north pole, one block outside of Philadelphia, PA.
ReplyDeleteWe must continue diligently responding to the hateful mails and blogs that threaten the very existence of this country. As angry as such treasonous words make us feel, we need to continue responding with the same calm and intelligent responses that President Obama uses.
While the treasonous offenders may not change their tone, other readers on the fence are more likely to hop over to the side of reason.
Well, I guess that's good advice. I just decided not to post a comment that I worked on for an hour. These people are not only very stupid, but have pathological reasons to hang on to their attitudes - I won't dignify it as opinion - and I'm not going to get through.
ReplyDeleteBut at the bottom of it is that Stupidity is a mighty fortress and the most heavily defended position there is. And I'm sorry if people are offended by my assertion that yes, some people really are stupid, some people really are demented, irrational and indeed crazy. Sometimes a euphemism just ain't enough.
In my experience, Capt., a mob with pitchforks is not interested in exchanging ideas.
ReplyDeletemaleeper: I doubt that there are very many fence riders on these kinds of blogs and possibly the tone will change before the minds.
ReplyDeleteI won't even go to liberal blogs where this kind of bickering, name calling and shouting goes on. Nobody is interested in hearing what anyone has to say. The they just want to spout venom.
A very thought provoking discussion. Thanks all. If I may add a word to tnlib's last comment about maleeper's comment -
ReplyDeleteQuite awhile ago I stopped reading a favorite liberal, feminist blog because of invivility in the comment threads. It was a total turn-off to me as a reader. I have never gone back.
So with regrds to engaging hateful commenters for the sake of the fence riders - I too wonder just how many fence-riders there are who might be influenced by reasoned responses to hate.
Blogs that allow such commenting no doubt lose a lot of readers such as my liberal self and others so I guess I'm not at all sure that engaging hate commenters serves any purpose that out weighs the fact that our reasoned responses continually fuel the fires of hate.
So I guess i agree with Rocky's comment at the begininng.
Also - right or wrong - blog owners who continually allow such hatefilled comment threads lose respect with me. I'm sorry - but that is honestly how I feel. That is another reason i stopped reading the high-profile feminist blog I referenced.
My 2 cents
I think Squid is correct in that blog owners who allow verbal "food" fights on their blogs run the risk of alienating rational commenters.
ReplyDeleteI also don't believe there are fence sitters who will be reached by engaging in this counterproductive raging.
Like Squid, myself and many others, the fence sitters probably just leave and never come back. What's the point?
It takes hard work and restraint on our part, but I still think the MLK model is the best.
Ignore the slurs, insults and lies.
Calming state the facts and your views based on the facts. Refrain from snark and inflammatory language in our posts. (I know that one will be tough for some :)
Ignore/delete trollish comments and do not address them in any way. If another commenter tries to pursue a thread based on a deleted comment, nicely inform them that the comment in question is off the table.
We simply must take back control of the discussions in order to bring back rational discussion and civil discourse.
I really believe many folks are looking for that father-type figure to gravitate to.
George Washington, the father of our country, MLK, the father of civil rights and even Ronald Reagan was a sort of father figure.
If we want respect, civility and intelligent debate, WE must set the example.
And that's MY two cents!
Rocky and Squid, I certainly share your frustrations about trolls and, as you know, have been an outspoken advocate of Netiquette.
ReplyDeleteMy first obligation is to respect the sensibilities of my colleagues and maintain our community standard. Recently, in fact, I stopped cross-posting articles at another weblog in consideration of the possibility that my activities there may attract trolls here.
When I visit other sites, I play by other rules – the standards set forth by those bloggists. On occasion, I report experiences there because these may be of interest here.
There is growing opinion, and I agree, that there is a far more sinister form of trolling taking place in political Cyberspace. To be blunt, there are paid psy-ops trolls whose goal is to disrupt and demoralize liberal sites. You cannot avoid them, but one must learn to counter them as one employs a counter insurgency to defend against insurgency.
To extend this metaphor, I returned to Pamela’s weblog this morning to read the latest comments. Sure enough, there were the usual suspects trying to undermine Pamela’s efforts. Using this metaphor of insurgency, I left this comment:
"Pamela, if I may offer a theory … What do terrorist insurgents in Iraq do? They bomb Shiite mosques to foment civil disorder. Their goal is to disrupt, to create social divisions, to spread chaos … There are Internet insurgents who do the same. They come here to disrupt, to create divisions among people, to demoralize and spread chaos. They are trying to defeat what you are trying to achieve."
I am under no illusion that casting trolls as “insurgents” or “terrorists” will dissuade them. Nevertheless, these words have strong negative connotations, and perhaps over time, trolls will generally be perceived in this context ... and that will be victory enough.