Friday, November 23, 2012

A few thoughts on religious extremists

Anybody who meets me will slowly come to realize that I have no time for religious extremism. Adding even more stupidity to an already illogical belief system is just compounding the brain damage.

On a (potentially unrelated) side note, I like to say that I use Facebook much in the way most people use their refrigerator door: as a place to hang things I find interesting/funny/unbelievable. I think it's a better idea than sticking things to my computer with refrigerator magnets.

(This is not a non-sequiter - it just looks like one. I once worked with an older woman, and one day I caught her using a magnet to put a picture of her grandkids on her hard drive. And just to make it better, she was putting it over her air vents. She didn't appreciate my input on the subject.)

My sister, the Episcopalian priestess, gets a little cranky with my lack of respect for her chosen profession. (By the way, she really dislikes the term "priestess." Just so you know...) She even wrote me, on Facebook, to ask why I kept putting down Christianity, and no other religion. You can probably insert a little "why do you hate god?" into that, too, if you'd like. Entirely subtext, of course.

My answer included the fact that there were plenty of other people out there bashing Islam, so they don't need any help on that front.

But overall, my opinion of religion is pretty much like the somewhat-overused joke:
Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.
There's a thousand variations on that one, but there it is.

With all that being said, I came across the following video clip, which is worth the ten minutes out of your day that it will take to see it. It's a bit from Russell Brand's talk show, where, inexplicably, two members of the Westboro Baptist Church agreed to appear.

For any of you that are unaware, Westboro Baptist is a cult dedicated to the idea that the Prince of Peace wants them to picket funerals and sporting events holding up colorful signs saying that "God hates fags" and explaining that you're all going to hell.

There's a lot of people out there, who've spent a lot of time and venom talking about the Westboro Baptist Church, so I'll let you look them up on your own. (At this point, all you need to google is "Westboro," so it isn't like the material is difficult to find.)


So, a couple of takeaways from this.

1. Russell Brand has a talk show? I mean, admittedly it's on FX, so how many people actually see it? But still... really?

2. Nobody should be surprised about them appearing on this show. The Westboro Baptists have made a life out of putting themselves on display, so this is just a logical extension of their standard behavior.

3. The guy with the hair, Steve Drain, can at least fake having some kind of charisma. The head-shaver, Timothy Phelps, can hardly hide his disdain for this crowd of heathens. Even when he tries for a crappy joke, his hatred for everyone and everything peeks out: "Well put. Other than the accent, very well put."
3a. Really? You dislike the fact that he's British? When there's so much else to hate there?
4. That being said, Russell Brand definitely came out on top here. (There's no double entendre there. Trust me.) He was polite, kept his audience in line, and, although he was in full Tease mode, he managed to keep it friendly and avoid most of the snark. But he didn't really take it easy on them, either.
Brand: "Have you considered that the Bible, like all religious doctrine, may be allegorical and symbolic to direct us toward one holy entity of love, as opposed to a specific litiginous text to direct the behavior of human beings? The Bible wasn't literally written by a cosmic entity. It was written by people."

Drain: "It was written by the holy spirit."

Brand: "The holy spirit ain't got a pen!"
And really, that's the only way to deal with people like that. Point and laugh.

28 comments:

  1. Problem is-they vote. ...and think creationism is biological science.

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  2. I'm assuming this applies to all extremists, as in Islamic as well. Or we just talking, well, you know what I mean.

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  3. All extremists are bad. In America, you mostly run into Christian extremists, and you hear about Muslim extremists, but all of them are a pain in the ass. I've met a born-again Buddhist in the Air Force, and nobody wanted to ride with him. Usually, the only extremist Jews you meet are technically "Messianic Jews" (Jews for Jesus) - but there are exceptions.

    All extremists. Every one. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

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    1. I thought that was what you intended Nameless. I am of course in agreement with you completely.

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  4. Old comment recycled:

    These theo-cons, in their religious ecstasy, remind me of a 6-year old child who has just received a new toy and, bursting with Hosannas and joy, keeps shoving the blasted thing in your face:

    “See, mommy, see! See my new toy.”
    “Yes, I see. Now go off and play.”

    Or the 2-year old who just discovered masturbation for the first time and demonstrates the newfound ecstasy rolling on the living room floor in front of guests. Then you have to explain to your little darling:

    “I am sure it feels good, Oh Little One, but please do it in your bedroom where you are alone and by yourself - with the lights out.”

    Or perhaps the family dog, knowing in advance the limits of its master, humps every guest who visits the house. If the dog could talk:

    “Woof, woof, pant, pant, come for Jesus! Woof, woof, pant, pant, come for Jesus!”

    Either these people suffer from arrested development, or they have the social graces of a horny and frustrated dog.

    RN,

    I am forced by default to direct the above comment only at Christian fundamentalists. Otherwise my comment might trigger riots in Cairo, Tripoli and Benghazi. We don't want no more reruns, do we? Besides, whenever a radical far right wingnut calls me a "liberal-commie-pinko-Islamofascist sympathizer, I hate to disappoint. After all, we do aim to please.

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    1. And frankly Octo I do not give a rat's
      diseased behind for political correctness or dainty polite etiquette. I believe in calling a spade a spade, a terrorist a terrorist, a wacko extreme religious zealot a wacko radical extreme religious zealot whether they hail from the USA or Cairo, Tripoli, or Benghazi.

      Truth is truth and everybody should aim for the truth. Therefore, let it be known that I, RN USA view the extremist socon on the same level as the extreme Islamist.

      Although I have yet to be aware of an extreme socon flying planes into any Muslim nation's buildings.

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  5. RN is a political extremist. He worships Rand and considers those who don't idiots..

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    1. And Anonymous is a delusional extremist who has little to no tolerance for views which are at odds with his/ own. In reality it is Anonymous who considers those who disagree with his/her views idiots.

      I feel quite flattered that Anonymous is so obsessed with me he/she has now followed me to this forum. Must be doing something right eh?

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    2. No, now, children! Play nicely. Otherwise I will be forced to take matters in hand and send you all back home with a double espresso, a puppy and a drum.

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    3. RN is correct-I have no tolerance for these ideas RN has written on his blog:

      RN writes:

      The Jews went willingly to the gas chambers.

      RN writes:

      Obama economics is the same as Hitler economics. '

      And many more. Just a sample of one you allow to spout here.

      Your choice

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    4. I haven't read those things, but of course none of it is even partially true. Those Jews - a tiny handful - who had means to fight back fought back and did it well. Maybe that's why "In Kalashnikov We Trust" is my motto, but as to Obama having a system of economics that's different from Clinton's economics I see not the slightest and most hyperbolic evidence. And of course a president is only an administrator.

      But no one is stopping anyone from spouting as long as we can keep it sorta civil.

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  6. Irrational Nationalist USA!USA!!USYAyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!! labors under the delusion that other folks do not see through his nonsense.

    The people who rammed the planes into buildings in 2001 did far less damage to this country than a religious fundamentalist and his cabal of bloodthirsty neo-cons visited upon Iraq in retaliation. Of course the fact that Iraq was not actually INVOLVED in those attacks seems to have escaped them--or am I just being naive, oh dear.

    Neo-cons and their useful idiots, the religious reiKKK do far more damage to the U.S. than was done on September 11, 2001 by a group of islamic zealots.

    Irratiional Nationalist knows this, but of course he prefers to ignore it.

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  7. Drain -- what an appropriate name, but then truth is always funnier than fiction.

    RN,

    "I believe in calling a spade a spade, a terrorist a terrorist,"

    So do I within limits, but depending on who's holding the gun, I may revise the policy from time to time. I'd say I prefer not to insult needlessly, but of course I'm somewhat less than consistent in that policy as has been demonstrated. I don't think you're an extremist, for what it's worth, even though we disagree on some things. A. Nonnymouse is being a bit extreme and would probably want you to respond in extreme fashion so as to justify his provocation.

    I have to say that I've encountered many extremist Jews and of course the "Holy Land" is overrun with them and to some extent governed by them. In the US the hirsute extremists tend to keep the nonsense within the community, but to me, they are as far into the whackadoodle kingdom of delusion as anyone. Yes, religious rage is raging amongst Muslims and I read there are now fatwas abjuring Muslims not to talk to the foreign press and I fear that secular Turkey may be headed for a nasty experience with the increasingly religious military (I fear the same thing here) but from my secular point of view, any religion is like a creature with no immune system and is always subject to violence, repression and mass delusion. I call history as a witness. What's saving Christianity, in my opinion, is the increasing secularization of mostly post-Christian Europe. I think we're going to see that trend in the US, but it's going to take a generation or two. At the moment that rift is tearing us apart.

    DC,

    I wonder if al Qaeda would seem to be less willing to kill every Kaffir in the US if they had the means, but we do have the means to sterilize the biosphere and so far haven't done it, not that I wouldn't curse the neocons -- that foul trinity of Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld -- to eternal damnation if I believed there was some supernatural entity capable of doing it. But if you're saying that the US has quite a history of extremism, and should be, for the sake of honesty, a bit more circumspect when it comes to acting like the right hand of some firebreathing God, I'm saying you're right.

    And lastly, I'm glad someone other than I posted the above. I'm a bit gun shy when it comes to Gods and Guns, as it were. Always happy to pile on though!

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  8. Interesting how the twist occurs. I said nothing about Iraq, or my position with respect to it. But like good obedient progressives one Democommie was quick to jump to conclusions. So, guess you'll never know the truth

    Out of here.

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  9. Capt, I apologize for not acknowledging your very salient points. I also appreciate your noting you do not see me as an extremist. After 60 years on this earth, and with over 35 of it supervising and motivating employees, as week as managing business interests I have found extremism to be less than effective.

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    1. The thing is, there's no middle ground any more - one is either a ultra-left, far out Trotzky loving Communist or the dimwitted offspring of Torquemada and Hitler's evil twin. Extremist isn't even a useful term any more if everyone is someone else's extremist.

      I'm extremely exhausted.

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    2. And BTW, I'm looking at 68 in a few months - just wait, it gets worse.

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    3. Thanks for the encouraging words Capt. At 61 I'm hoping to have completed my PFT training, receives NASM certification, and beginning to design exeecise prescriptions as well as doing personal training. Mostly for the over 50 crowd of course. :-)

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  10. "Although I have yet to be aware of an extreme socon flying planes into any Muslim nation's buildings."

    Said by Rathole Nationalist @11:26 PM on 11/23/2012.

    After my reply @ 7:21 AM on 11/24/2012, he sez:

    "Rational Nation USA3:47 PM, November 24, 2012
    Interesting how the twist occurs. I said nothing about Iraq, or my position with respect to it. But like good obedient progressives one Democommie was quick to jump to conclusions. So, guess you'll never know the truth

    Out of here."

    Oh, if only, "Out of here" were true.

    The problem, honey, is this; in cyberspace there are archived comments.

    You raised the issue, not I, by deliberately singling out muslim extremists as killers. Care to compare the body counts from the WTC and the TWO countries which the U.S. has been killing people in since 2002 and 2003 respectively? Them muslims are really a bloodthirsty lot. Why, sinced 2001 they've killed hundreds of thousands of unarmed U.S. civilians, no wait they've killed thousands of unarmed U.S. civilians. Um,uh,er--they've killed hundreds of, shit, they've KILLED U.S. civilians, so THERE.

    Are you, btw, still a Randboy? Jesus, that hag's been discredited more times than Rush Limbaugh.

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  11. Discredited by Whom, says it all sweetheart.

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  12. O freunde, nicht diese toene!
    Sondern lasst uns angenehmere anstimmen und
    Freundenvollere!


    Y'all know, I have no warm feelings about religious belief and I'm the first to argue that religion has stifled progress and punished science and provoked wars since -- well, since forever, but not all religious people are extremists or into shoving their moral authority up any available orifice.

    But, yes, extremism is an occupational hazard of those occupied with believing things religious or not and religions may be possessed of prodigious immune systems, they're not often so good about self examination or swallowing annoying but true data.

    Tell a Muslim about him being a killer and he'll start telling you about the Crusades and Western atrocities past and present -- and he may not be lying. Aski a Seminole about how nice Christians are, for Christ's sake. Maybe we're just as good at forgiving ourselves or rationalizing our atrocities as anyone. Nobody has a lot of free stone throws here.

    As for Ayn Rand, as far as I'm concerned any political philosophy that has to be presented in a work of fiction should be relegated to works of fiction and face it - Marxism looks really good on paper too and has a lot more logic and trenchant observation behind it. Both suck people in who don't notice that only enough facts are given to make it look good and in practice either can only survive by the power of authority once people catch on to the facts.

    Look at it this way. Jesus had some good and true things to say about making the world a better place and look at what's been done by Christians. I rest my case.

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  13. Well Capt., Rand wrote many non fiction pieces describing further her views. Interpretation of same is of course at the discretion of the individual. As it should be. As much as Marx is unfairly maligned by a significant number in the US, as well as admired by others, I'll throw my lot in with Rand if those be the only two choices.

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    1. A non-fiction piece is not the same as reality. I like to judge the worth of such philosophy in terms of what happens when you institute it and most often such philosophies are so contrived and fail to incorporate inconvenient truths that they really, like Communism, never even go far enough to do more than turn into yet another tyranny. In Rands case I see it all as a herculean effort to make sense out of her hatred of the Communists and most such utopian passion plays belong on the stage or between the covers of books.

      And of course those are not the only choices, but a regulated free market economy the regulation of which is subject to a democratic process seems to work better than anything we've seen. At least it seems less to favor special powers for special people that rapidly expand into feudal forms. Rand's 'vision' seems a whole lot like a world where special classes rule lesser classes and one in which there's nothing to keep those 'job creators' or whatever you call them into making their privileges into hereditary and absolute powers. It hardly takes into account the nearly infinite variables that constitute human affairs, giving only scripted narratives.

      Her Utopia wouldn't last long enough to get started and if it somehow did, the revolution would follow so quickly Mr. Galt wouldn't have time to get out of town. Isn't it the ultimate attempt to play God -- designing a society and expecting it to take life and prosper? Or is it more like playing Frankenstein?

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  14. A recent exchange on an Internet dating site:

    "Hello. I'm a Christian, the daughter of an angel, an incarnated angel myself. For me, it's all about God ... all about service to God ... there is no life without God. The fact that you describe yourself as an "atheist" precludes anything we may have in common."

    Too bad. And I thought the purpose of a missionary position was to convert godless heathens.



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    1. No, it's intended to keep animals from breeding so as to make room for more and more people. "Be fruitful and multiply like bacteria until the host dies" sayeth the shameless shaman.

      But hello to you - I'm an Odinani, son of an incarnated lesser deity of Chukwu and an element of Chukwu myself. There is no life except in Chukwu, chuck you very much.

      The fact that you're a pompous, inflated and grotesque balloon pretending to be of service to anything but further ego inflation precludes anything resembling respect -- unless of course you'd be suitable for human sacrifice. But you're probably not a virgin.

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  15. Supine/ Prone relationship. Something about dominance. Maybe?

    Just saying.

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  16. "And of course those are not the only choices, but a regulated free market economy the regulation of which is subject to a democratic process seems to work better than anything we've seen. At least it seems less to favor special powers for special people that rapidly expand into feudal forms."

    Okay, no argument in principle. But given this is what we essentially have, democracy through the IMNHO superior republic form (as true democracy will ultimately yield mob rule or anarchy), we have still arrived at the place most would rather not be. Money at the top, controlled by the oligarchs, in collusion with a compliant and obeying government. Yeah it may be better than a banana republic even yet, but for how long.

    And neither Rand nor Marx has been tried in the sense both intended.

    And the beat goes on...

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  17. "we have still arrived at the place most would rather not be. Money at the top, controlled by the oligarchs, in collusion with a compliant and obeying government. Yeah it may be better than a banana republic even yet, but for how long."

    Pretty much, but we're still better off than most countries. Some might argue that we'd be better off still but for the tinkerings of the deregulators. Look what deregulation has done to the airlines and of course that was President Jimmuh, wasn't it? I blame the tax slashing of the 1920's for the crash of '29 and I credit the graduated tax structure for the expansion of a middle class in large part. Has anyone noticed that the growing income disparity has followed the tax slashing we've indulged in recently? The rich have become very much richer but the rich spend less and money leaves the economy -- but that's all the theorizing I'm going to do on this beautiful morning.

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