Will just make this a new main entry because the thread we've been commenting on is getting very long. Just to respond to one thing Rocky mentioned about the difficulty of assessing whether blogging does much good, I don't know what good all these thousands of blogs passing through the "Tubes and Pipes" do either—it's a good question. It may be that more than we know depends on some core of people who are capable of making an intelligent case for their convictions rather than shouting as loud as they can and then resorting to chicanery when that doesn't work. I used to enjoy listening—believe it or not—to William F. Buckley's Firing Line interviews. I disagreed with him most of the time, but the fellow had a certain semi-aristocratic, bemused way of intoning, "Now what would Kant say about that as an ethical proposition?" to people who claimed to know the way but hadn't consulted the moral or intellectual atlas necessary to sustain their claim.
As for post-election gloating, yes, it should be avoided and is invariably in poor taste. If John McCain loses as all the major pollsters and the politicos now expect, he will still have been granted the nomination of his party. That is a tremendous honor granted to very few politicians, and he should be proud of it, as he is of his military service.
That Old-Time Socialism
Also wanted to address what I recall being Robert's use of the term "socialist" or "socialism." I think such a term always needs calibration. Socialism of the grand old European sort is by no means something Obama or other Democrats would want anything to do with. Nobody in Glorious Nation of US & A really wants to do away with the market in favor of system-wide state control of the means and processes of production, and that is what socialism is. I don't know any Democrats who want to do away with private property. (We do have one self-declared Socialist in Congress. Bernie Sanders of Vermont. He's a cool cat, but nobody listens to him.) America has a very strong capitalist, market-oriented tradition that has, for practical reasons, been somewhat modified over many decades, especially since the Great Depression. We now have what could be called a mixed socio-economic system, with hefty government involvement in some areas, and very little in others. Why this involvement is sometimes necessary should be painfully evident from the recent (and potentially ongoing) near-collapse of our financial sector thanks to an ideologically based proscription of even the most necessary oversight of market practices. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you know, capitalist movers and shakers do not always do what's in the best interests of keeping the system viable. (The Brits figured this out long ago, and it is why there wasn't a communist revolution in Great Britain, as Marx himself thought would be the case.) There is no such thing as pure capitalism in practice anymore, and with good reason. All western liberal societies are "mixed." A socialist government wants to nationalize/centralize production and rationalize distribution rather than leaving things up to market forces that it finds exploitative. And it wants to do this as a means of eventually or rapidly doing away with the capitalist order in its entirety: full communism. Even something like Canadian-style single-payer health insurance (which Obama doesn't support) wouldn't come near such a thoroughgoing agenda, and is unlikely to lead to one. A socialist wants to transform the entire socio-economic complex of institutions and practices radically, and there just aren't any serious, highly influential leftists of that kind in American political power today. Obama is arguably fairly "liberal" in his views, but American liberalism doesn't equate to socialism: it is just a modulation of bourgeois capitalist ideology, not a fundamental challenge to it. Indeed, the European left has always found the American left half-hearted and undisciplined.
When Comrade Obama starts talking like this, I'll diagnose him as a downright socialist:
You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society."Allerdings, das wollen wir." Can't fault Uncle Karl for sarcasm, that's for sure.
In a word, you reproach us with intending to do away with your property. Precisely so; that is just what we intend. (The Communist Manifesto, 1848, Part II -- from my little International Publishers volume, replete with red-and-white cover pics of Karl and Fred.)
Darn thing about name-calling and fear mongering during an election cycle. If the dig works, run it again, and keep running it until it gets firmly imprinted into the collective mindset.
ReplyDeleteI don’t understand this socialism riff either. Economies are so mixed these days, capitalism and socialism are merely a matter of degree and viewpoint.
I’ve lived a good portion of my adult life in Europe … England, France, Germany, Denmark, plus frequent travel throughout the EU. Living abroad and talking with people, one gets much more of a feel for history and culture than if one were merely a tourist.
Yes, taxes are high throughout Europe. I paid a flat tax (literally a tax on my “flat” which is called an “apartment” or “condo” here in America. Flat = habitation tax). When I lived in England, the VAT (value-added tax = sales tax) was 17%. In France and Germany it was 22%. Denmark was even higher. There was also an income tax … a very “progressive” income tax … 50% for the top income earner. Other deductions from income include national health and social security. And would you believe: A television tax!
And Americans bellyache about taxes. Sheesh! Despite what Americans would consider onerous taxes, all citizens have universal health coverage, college tuition and living costs, plus many other benefits. Americans wouldn’t tolerate this; yet it depends on what one values in life and what kind of a society you want.
France spends more on arts, culture, and museums than on military and defense. My kind of place!
In the immediate post WW-II period, socialism was necessary. The continent was devastated by war, and governments needed to take a very proactive approach to rebuilding and providing essential services to highly stressed populations. Americans are quick to condemn but don’t appreciate this aspect of European history.
Americans also think of European-style socialism as oppressive. Quite the opposite. Having a social safety net can be quite reassuring, and governments are much more protective of personal privacy than Americans tend to be (all that snooping and gossiping, ya know). And finally, no one in Europe gives a rat’s ass about what goes on in your bedroom. The clergy know their place; they do not butt in unless you ask them to.
Overall, I could go back there. No problem!
It's funny how we spend so much time trying to seem "Euro" by making up silly names for coffee and the people who serve it, but never pass up the chance to manufacture reasons to feel superior. I think it means we're jealous. Are we really proud of having to choose between this month's rent and replacing that missing front tooth; between blood pressure medication and school supplies? That's reality for an awful lot of Americans.
ReplyDeleteReality gets in the way of our narcissism so we skulk away from it muttering about socialism Vs. Freedom; concepts that, as you imply, most of us can't begin to define.
We've been trained to growl at the "S" word for so many generations now, we don't even bother to think. All this nonsense about creepy, Crawly Communism and the Democrats only works in an ignorant and misinformed country, but guess what.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens" and so do we progressive types.
"It may be that more than we know depends on some core of people who are capable of making an intelligent case for their convictions rather than shouting as loud as they can and then resorting to chicanery when that doesn't work."
ReplyDeleteI, for one, appreciate all the thoughtful posters on the left and right. The blogs I visit regularly are the kind where the blogger states his/her case and cites references. I think it's a great place to get people involved in the process (although the trolls can be tiresome).
As for the labels -- I am so tired of someone trying to pigeonhole me. I am pro-choice but not necessarily pro-abortion, so McCain really stepped in it by referring to us collectively as such. I don't believe in abortion under most circumstances but I grew up in a time when women still crossed state lines to see someone who was probably not clean or qualified in thier desparation and despair. Occasionally, they didn't make it and sometimes they were scarred for life. To go back to those days is totally unacceptable to me.
The tag of socialist really irks also. We have socialist aspects in our country's governence. Things like welfare, hospitals that must treat the uninsured, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, orphanages....
I am a patriotic American. What defines that for me is probably different from every other American, but that makes me no less of a patriot.
This has been the most negative, most disappointing election, both on a national and state level I have ever witnessed. I think we have hit an all time low here and my hope now is for us to wake up tomorrow, welcome the new president and get busy working together again.
Octo, wonderful story about your ex-father-in-law. Still voting at 94! And Squid, two hours? That's ridiculous—and I've heard of waits as long as eight hours for some early-voters. If we got our act together, it really shouldn't take more than, say, 20 minutes wait at most. I usually vote at my local church, and the longest wait I've had was during the Democratic primary this year—but it was only about half an hour b/c turnout was uncommonly high. But this is just logistics, and lots of people are experts in that, so it ain't rocket science—we should be able to figure it out.
ReplyDeleteTo all on the sozialismus thang – yes, I understand Robert's point that American conservatives use the term rather generally to connote "people who want more government and less market." Not sure the people I saw getting stirred up at Palin rallies believe Obama isn't a communist from outer space, though—the word has been used by the McCain/Palin ticket, in my view, as a component of their end-run strategy revolving around the question, "Just who is this Barack Obama?" (Implied: if one has to ask, the answers can't be reassuring.) But on the general point, sure, I understand—it's a criticism of those who prefer the semi-socialistic liberal democracies in western Europe to the somewhat less hybridized economy and society here. I tend to use political terms rigorously, like the political science major I initially was. Scientific socialism = Marxism; then there's utopian socialism (Fourier, Robert Owen, etc.), paternal socialism (Ruskin), and European liberal-democracy-style socialism, i.e. with an historically evolving tendency towards wide-reaching and ranging social welfare programs, and certain components of the economy nationalized: English socialism, so to speak. I'll leave aside the New Deal because that's a huge thing to discuss, but more recently, LBJ's push towards the Great Society was well-intentioned, but very hastily put together (the old man knew there was only a short time window in which to act, in the shadow of JFK's murder and as things got worse in 'Nam, before everybody turned against him), with the programs coming at breakneck speed. Some of them worked well; others didn't work so well and may have created more problems than they alleviated. Perhaps more on all that anon – today I am going to follow the elections and get some school work done. Hard to believe this whole difficult, contentious election season is down to its final hours, but here we are!
8pus - BTW, if you are responsible for the photo gracing the headliner of this blog, then I have a good guess of who you are. :)
ReplyDeleteDrove by my usual polling place (a church) at midday and it looked like things were going smoothly. The only excitement was over Prop. 8 (a "yes" on which would ban gay marriage) -- there were some very agitated-looking Yes-on-8ers a ways from the church waving handmade placards "defending traditional marriage." They looked like they had all just downed a six-pack of Red Bull or something. I hope they lose, but it may be close either way. Am watching PBS, and they've called the election since California is obviously going for Obama, and that gives his 275. Now I'm just interested in seeing if Al Franken wins his senate race in Minnesota--looks close.
ReplyDelete