Yes, it's the atheists, as though they were a group: it's the atheists, the non-believers who are getting in the way of her cheerful enjoyment of Christmas and the atheists who should be treated like "Internet trolls." That, I presume, means to ignore them. Of course, in Fox speak, that means to continue their mythical battle between retail Christianity and the nefarious forces of religious freedom.
Gretchen Carlson, who apparently has a good shot at surpassing Malkin for sheer vituperative viciousness disagrees, saying that religious freedom will be the death of Christianity.
"If you don't stand up and fight for it, it might just disappear! I'm talking about Christianity!"No, you're not, you're talking about forced unanimity and mandatory expressions of official faith. Christianity thrived actual persecution for enough time to make me doubt that it's future is injeopardy , at least from other religions, and it has thrived through persecutions of it's own, but it's having a tougher time in some places that leave everyone alone to celebrate if and when and how they like and restrain them from forcing their practices and rituals on others.
Back before Christianity was coopted by those who play to the stupid and ignorant and hateful; back before Fox News and the Aryan Nation, it was an inclusive holiday. As a non-Christian and an atheist and someone who knows all too much about Christian history, about early Christian, Greco-Persian, Roman and Norse practices that form the basis of Christmas: as someone who knows how the holiday (and yes, it's a goddamn holiday) owes more to Coca-Cola, Hallmark and Charles Dickens than to some Jewish baby born to a teenage mother in April of an indeterminate year about 2000 years ago, I've always celebrated it anyway. After all Christmas as we know it is an American holiday and one that used to bring about a spirit of tolerance, brotherhood and generosity to a unique degree. It was a holiday that brought out the liberal in most of us.
Now that it's become a bloody piece of meat in the claws of harpies like Malkin and Carlson, now that we've become as stupid and superstitious and as ready to rend our neighbors as any of our subhuman cousins at the behest of Fox and its stable of demons, I'm no longer interested. Its just another hot poker in the dungeons of the Fox inquisition.
Of course if their were any real Christians in this country they might propose at least to ignore this attempt to make it a holiday of hate, but perhaps that, like liberty and the pursuit of happiness just another lost hope of the secular humanists who first dreamed of it.
I followed the link you posted - a mind-numbingly unproductive, circuitous debate.
ReplyDeleteI am not one who is prone to waxing poetic about the good 'ole days - but in this case I agree with you, Fogg. As for why some Christians don't stand up to these extremist Christians (evan's) - I can only offer up my family as an example. I come from a family of gentle, passive Christians who, for the most part, refuse to attend any church that is NOT welcoming & inclusive (i.e. liberal). I can't count myself among them in fairness because I haven't set foot inside of a church for awhile. Anyway - my family tends to turn a deaf ear to such extremist Christian thought hoping it will burn itself out & go away - they don't like it - but because most everyone they know is Christian like them, it doesn't occur to them how it makes non-Christians and/or atheists feel. I realize this is not an excuse for not standing up for all people in the true Christian spirit of the all inclusive Jesus of Naz - but it is an honest reason. No offense is intended - it is just not understood.
In fact, I think folk like my family tend to view evangelicals as an affront to their own brand of inclusive Christianity & forget that it is also an affront to non-Christians. In other words - I think they tend to view the matter as an "in house" squabble amongst Christians.
Not sure I'm making any sense, Fogg. But I do sympathize with all you are saying & it is troubling.
It's reassuring to hear, but I never doubted that most people aren't militant, fundamentalist crusaders.
ReplyDeleteIt is getting so that a day doesn't go by that I don't hear the Fox line though: things like "It's Christmas, not a holiday" which, you have to admit is, as you say, a mind numbingly unproductive assertion. What else is it but a holiday? In fact it's a national holiday.
I'm certainly not and never have been offended by anyone saying Merry Christmas to me and I say it all the time - and usually not in a sarcastic way! It's always been an enjoyable holiday for me. I've always given Christmas presents and whether one believes Jesus was divine or not has nothing to do with the satisfaction of being nice to other people whether naughty or nice. I'm truly resentful that Fox is taking it away from me and turning it into a festival of militant tribalism.
What truly amazes me though is that they haven't seemed to noticed that nobody is persecuting Christmas or Christians but these hate-mongers on Fox.
"militant tribalism" is a very apt phrase.
ReplyDeleteAnd you put me to shame, Fogg, going around with "Merry Christmas" on your lips & buying gifts etc. without even having a faith in Christianity as a reason! I sincerely applaud you for valuing the full spirit of xmas with your angry post.
In recent years I have become increasingly detached from xmas for various personal reasons - I'll spare you the details. . . It always used to be my absolute favorite time of year. Now it is just another holiday from work.
But in an effort to match your spirit, Fogg, I dug out an old tape of Pavoratti singing Panis Angelicus. There might be hope for a squid's waning xmas spirit yet!
Years ago, when I used to comment on rightwing hate-mongers like Limbaugh and Malkin, I looked at them in the same context as other shock-jocks like Howard Stern and Don Imus. Offensive behavior gets noticed, drives up ratings … another form of fringe marketing that pushes decorum further into the wilderness. According to this logic, to pay attention was to give ego food to the narcissists, and attention meant money in their pockets. Therefore, better to ignore them, marginalize them, I thought.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this was my own rationalization for avoiding dog shit on the sidewalk. Not paying attention, isn’t that how tyrannies get started? Cast a blind eye and soon there will be broken glass everywhere.
I tried to look at rightwing extremism from a Freudian perspective, Das Unbehagen in der Kultur. On the surface, wingnuts struck me as the ultimate conformists who would demand the ultimate repression to save civilization from the ultimate nihilism. In their worldview, there is no wiggle room for diversity or tolerance. Wherever they look, they see the Blond Beast of History Past, the Liberal Beast of Christmas Present, or any other masturbatory revelation that springs from their delusional imaginations.
I do not see them as they would see themselves … as the self-appointed antidotes to nihilism. I see them as civilization’s discontents, the Beast Itself. I fear them, loathe them, and can no longer ignore them.
8pus, you are quite right; we can't ignore the ultra radical "Christian" right or we will be the ones who lose. And what they are espousing is very scary. If they had their way, all other religions or nonreligions would be illegal. And exactly who would get to choose the exactly correct Christian dogma will simply lead to more rage. Why? Because trying to mix secular and religious issues just doesn't work!
ReplyDeleteI know a few Jews, Muslims and even an atheist or two and by and large, they have no objection to the practice of celebrating Christmas. But why should they have to be bombarded by images and traditions that they take no part in?
So, all churches who want to put up a nativity scene, go for it. You want to put a sign in your yard that says God is dead, that SHOULD be your perogative. Public buildings supported by public funds have no business setting up religious displays. I'm pretty sure a wreath and a Happy Holidays! would be pretty much acceptable to most in a public building. But to insist that America is a Christian country only shows ignorance of the intent of our founding fathers in drafting the Constitution. Otherwise the very first amendment would NOT begin: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.." While the right wing seems intent on proving the liberals are trying to destroy the Constitution, they are blind to the fact that they themselves are trying to tear it to shreds!
"Stepping in dogshit" - good analogy, 8pus.
BTW, Fogg, excellent post. Your rants always resonate with me.
ReplyDeleteRocky, a footnote of the term "Blond Beast." It refers to the blond poster boys known as Hitler Youth. In other words, symbols of Aryan supremacy. I see all rightwing super-conformists trading on suspicion and hate in this context.
Within the past few years I moved from a blue state to a red state. When we lived in a blue state, my child's school went out of its way to emphasize the "holiday" & de-emphasize the "christmas/santa" of the "holiday season." My child's school concert was a mix of secular xmas songs, Christian songs, Hanuka songs, kwanza songs, etc etc etc. THey even sand "It's a Small World After All." My child's class even had a Jewish parent come to school to explain Hanuka. The art work that came home from school was generic, non-christian holiday themed.
ReplyDeleteThen we moved to a red state. My child's xmas concert was ALL Christian. All the art work that came home was Christian/santa clause based. I remember thinking how awkward it would be for a Jewish or Muslim child in the class or school. BUT - they were clearly NOT expected to be present in that school district, in the state. My blood boiled.
This year is no different. The art work lining the halls of the school is all about Christian xmas - & it's a PUBLIC school.
What a difference going from a blue state to a red state can make, at least in our experience.
So my blood boils again.
Squid, the red state you describe is not unlike New Jersey in the 1950s. When and where I grew up, the Jewish kids at Christmas time where moved to the back of the classroom and given paper and crayons to busy themselves while the teacher engaged the Christian kids with Christmas festivities. Yes, it made the Jewish kids feel separate and apart, although their parents paid good tax money to support a school that discriminated against their children.
ReplyDeleteThis atheism bunk is not about atheists, in my opinion. It is a code word for Jews who used to complain about being excluded. But they can't say "damn Jews" anymore because that would invoke the Blond Beast. Instead, they scapegoat atheists as if they were Jews (most of whom are considered atheists anyway).
My home state of New Jersey moved beyond such discriminatory treatment of minority kids; it seems the red states remain stuck in time. But Yahweh forbid you say anything: They'll tar and feather you and run you out of town ... damn atheist, err, whatever!
Unsettling a thought as it is - I do believe you are correct, Octopus. Perhaps the old days of your New Jersey & the current days of my red state were/are more "honest", in a way anyway, with their Christian-centrism on full display.
ReplyDeleteA terrible irony given what this country theoretically stands for. In light of today's discussion here, Obama's choice of preacher for his inauguration is a bit problematic maybe?
About Rick Warren, Libby at The Impolitic has been struggling with this controversy for several days and offers an good discussion.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the Warren invitation may not have been Obama’s doing, according to Salon.com:
This time, though, the decision to get involved with Saddleback was actually not Obama's. The Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies, run by the House and Senate, put together the program for the swearing-in ceremony. Congress, not Obama, invited Warren …
So maybe Obama is trying to make the best of a bad situation (and taking considerable heat). Giving Obama the benefit of doubt, I am not going into octo-rage mode ... at least this time.
Personally, I think the whole Rick Warren thing is "much ado about nothing." Basically, most people will hear blah, blah, blah and he'll hold the bible and say a few more blah, blah, blahs and all anyone will be talking about the next day is Michelle's dress! I think I'll save my outrage for the really important stuff.
ReplyDeleteRocky, what you say about the Warren thing is probably the most calm and rational response in cyberspace right now. I'll go with it and say thanks.
ReplyDeleteThanks 8 pus - I had a thought though. If Obama had been really courageous, he should have insisted on having a Rabbi, a Catholic priest and a Muslim cleric join Warren to deliver their blessings or whatever.
ReplyDeleteThe whole process has become so pointlessly ritualistic. I just can't wait for the inauguration to be over with to see what REAL work this new administration is going to do.
Alittle less conversation and a little more action!
As the recent election contained an element, I think, of rejection of the fundamentalist war on liberty, I would have appreciated Obama having chosen some more enlightened shaman that Warren. Of course I would have appreciated it most if he had simply affirmed his oath without any nod to mankind's most atavistic inclinations as the constitution provides.
ReplyDeletePerhaps he would have preferred that too, but as Mark Twain wrote, free speech, particularly with reference to politics, is available only to the dead.
As to christian ritual in school - I'm older than dirt and I remember in Kindergarten or maybe first grade, which would have been about '49 or '50, coming home and demonstrating the new songs I'd learned about "little Lord Jesus" and "Christ the lord" to my mother's great sadness. Of course We didn't have to recite that oath affirming our country's subjection to God yet.
I had it pointed out to me yesterday, that 6 of our States have constitution requiring belief in God for public office holders. Some also require belief in heaven or some form of eternal reward.
That's because the apes can't imagine morality without fear of divine punishment and that speaks to the central cynicism and self loathing of the religiously neurotic. As far as I'm concerned, the empty meaninglessness of life demands compassion while the simple, get-out-of-hell-free cards sold by the shamans demeans us all.
But that's just my opinion - reality may be even worse than I imagine.
Yes, Fogg, I agree - and why must every political ceremony in this country be rubber-stamped by christianity? And if we truly are a country of many faiths then why do we keep privileging one? It's an insidious message that not only reminds people of other faiths that they don't rate & is already being programmed into our children. Just like that "under God" oath our children must say every morning in school.
ReplyDeleteI have, a few times, been caught still on school premises in the morning when the announcement comes over the loud speaker asking everyone to "please rise" etc. I rise with other parents, but I do NOT recite the pledge & my hands stay firmly by my side. My silent, peaceful protest against such blatant, nationalistic, ideological programming.
Sorry - I don't mean to offend anyone, but that oath "under God" truly bothers me. Along with the blind assumption that there are no children of other-than Christian beliefs in my child's school.
R Warren's presence, of all people, at the inauguration, will do nothing but continue our policy of Christian rubber-stamping. And the world will be watching - oh yes it will - with such an historic president. I honestly pray that RW will tone down his rhetoric and reach across the aisle of faith. I sincerely hope he does.
Well, since all of you hate Christmas so much I suggest you just treat it like any other day and head off to work.
ReplyDeleteOh - he's a REDhunter! How quaint.
ReplyDeleteSorry Tom, jobs are for little people. Successful capitalists like Octo and me don't have to work. Don't you just love capitalism?
Oh by the way, not one of us mentioned hating Christmas and none of us does, so are you demented or just a one-hose douchebag?