You know, there are people out there who don't understand what it means to be an American!
I mean, you know what we learned today? That secret prisons where people got waterboarded led us to Osama!!!
Yeah! Waterboarding worked! How about that, libs? We got actionable intelligence by torturing somebody! Awesome, right?
I mean, yeah, there's this guy, Mohammed Basardah. He talked. He spilled all kinds of names and locations and everything else. They couldn't shut him up, he talked so much. They rounded up all kinds of people based on what he said. He gave them so much intel, they let him go out of gratitude for the help.
But, I mean, that's where it gets funny, right? Because Basrdah turns out to be just a small-time pot dealer in Mecca. He made up all this stuff, and threw in some names of people he didn't like, or that he'd heard of, or just fake names. So we round up all these people, and they have no idea what's going on, right? But we have "actionable intelligence" saying that they DO know, right?
So, they act like they don't know anything, and do we have a choice? Hell, no! We have to waterboard them to get the truth out! I mean, yeah, they don't know what the "truth" is, because it's just stuff Basardah made up, right?
But that's what's so funny!
Same thing with these people that the Pakistani tribes sold to us - they were just passing through, but we were offering thousands of dollars in bounties! What could the tribesmen do? How could they resist that kind of money? So they sold us tourists - can you blame them?
Now, we have these people in custody, and they claim they're innocent, right? As if! So we have to waterboard them, or chain them up, or do the sleep deprivation thing, until they answer us, right? I mean, do we have a choice?
You know, looking back, maybe there are some hippies who'll try to claim that when we torture innocent people, we might be making another generation of people who will stop at nothing to kill us. But what do they know, right?
Because we're Americans, motherfucker! We do what's right! Even if it seems like it's wrong! I mean, this is what we have got to do, right?
Right?
...right?
This is one of those diabolical issues for liberals – on the one hand, if you argue that it’s always wrong a priori to torture someone whether it works or not (good evidence suggests that it doesn’t), I would say you’re correct, but the position will probably seem counterintuitive to many people, who may suppose that the stronger position is to “do whatever it takes.” Refusing to do whatever it takes, to them, will sound like weakness in the face of evil. But on the other hand, if you say only that we shouldn’t torture because it doesn’t work, that cedes a lot of ground to the opposing side because, again, the position will probably seem counterintuitive to many people, and their attitude will be “Well, if that’s your main concern instead of morality, why take a chance? Just do it – it might work.” It may be that the only way to argue the matter is rather dubious intellectually but rhetorically effective: insist that torture is a moral abomination AND that it’s stupid because it’s almost certain not to yield reliable results. After all, both statements are true. To genuinely educated people, you shouldn’t need to make the latter case, but to the foolish, there’s no choice but to make it in addition to the moral case, which must, by the way, be made with considerable intensity.
ReplyDeleteRefraining from inhumane treatment was with little doubt only made to stick as a rule by means of long repetition until it became an unquestioned verity, and it’s disappointing to see just how easily such verities break down under pressure, requiring extraordinary effort to reinstate them as rules. This is something that’s hard to set right once it goes wrong. Once people start rethinking an issue like torture, it’s probably a sign that things have already gone very far off the rails and barbarism is howling and battering at the gates of civilized society.
Dino:
ReplyDelete"barbarism is howling and battering at the gates of civilized society."
Calls to mind a certain Vasari fresco in the Palazzo Vecchio, and our obsession with strength and toughness is revealing. I think those gates have been open for a long time and "happy hour" over the entrance in neon.
The film of New Yorkers out proclaiming our number one-ness and demanding that we "burn the demon" is all the evidence I need.
ReplyDeleteThis recalls a book by Andrew Shapiro titled We're Number One which is essentially a list of America's top standing in teen pregnancies, non-acceptance of biological evolution, percent of our citizens in prison, (we are only number 2 next to China in executions), percent of our GDP we spend on medical care... the list goes on.
ReplyDeletePeople are sadly, horribly crazy. Honestly, I thought (by the title) that you had gone 'round the bend yourself. Glad to see it was just a bit of irony at play.
ReplyDeleteAre those with brains losing ground as fast as I think they are?
This self-congratulatory spectacle, including Obama's own speech extolling the virtues and strength of America -- that in light of premeditated assassination of an unarmed man, in his own house, in the middle of the night and in front of his family -- has been nauseating, I have to say.
ReplyDeleteGlenn Greenwald unloads his bitter sarcasm:
It's been a long time since Americans felt this good and strong about themselves -- nothing like putting bullets in someone's skull and dumping their corpse into an ocean to rejuvenate that can-do American sense of optimism.
I don’t think we need to apologize for hunting down and killing Osama bin Laden. But yes, the orgiastic “Yoo-Ess-Eh!!” chanting is over the top. That sort of thing looks stupid even in sports arenas, let alone as a response to a deadly military assault. And of course the tv box people used those scenes as a continual backdrop for their coverage and commentary.
ReplyDeleteIf ever a man deserved to be executed it was Osama bin Laden, unarmed or not. But the gloating chants lowered us in the image of the world to those mid-easterners who chanted with glee after 9/11. We should have been better than that.
ReplyDeleteYou're quite right, we should have acted more like Obama, but that's asking a lot and I can't forget the crowds of cheering, dancing and singing people celebrating 9/11 either.
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling our image isn't elevated by all the introspection and self flagellation and questioning our right not only to self defense, but to existence.