It's Sunday, so it seems like the appropriate time to consider the concept of hell. The fundies like to bring it up all the time: "you don't agree with us, you're going to burn," usually leaving the postscript, "...and I'm going to enjoy it," unstated.Now, the Hebrews (you know, the guys with the Old Testament) didn't go in for the idea of hell much. In Daniel 12:2, you get something vaguely similar to the traditional Christian idea, but not quite.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.So, not a lot of torment, but there's guilt (an emotion some might call the foundation of Judaism).
If the ancient Jews talked about it at all, they usually referred to Sheol, which is the place where all the dead, good and bad, hung out.
However, they did give us one other word: Gehenna, which is derived from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, or "the Valley of Hinnom." It was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. There was always a fire there, because you burned your garbage, and it was also referred to a few times (2 Chron. 28:3, for instance) as a place where some various pagan types sacrificed children.
If you go to the original Greek, the New Testament describes Hell with three words:
- Hades (taken from the Greek god of the same name), which was pretty much like the Jewish idea of Sheol
- Gehenna was sometimes used as a place to toss the bodies who "died in sin" for a quick cremation. So the term Gehenna in the New Testament became a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after they died (or, more technically, after the Resurrection of Jesus, which they've been promising for 2 millenia now).
- Tartarus is used once, in II Peter 2:4 - Pete stole the idea from the Greeks, where it was the place where their gods put the titans after they rebelled. So Pete grabbed that idea and ran with it.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
In 1999, Pope John Paul II tried to go back to the friendlier idea of the ancient Hebrews, and said that "more than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."Unfortunately for the pope's attempt to make Christianity all warm and fuzzy, the New Testament is littered with descriptions of the dead being toasted: the potentially drug-induced Revelations, for example, gives us this.
...and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelations 20:12-15)John the Revelator also gave us the most boring version of an afterlife ever - following Jesus around to sing about how great he is. Apparently, Jesus is too lazy to stick his own affirmations everywhere on Post-it notes like normal people.
(And incidentally, that description of heaven, found in Revelations 14:1-5, is where the Jehovah's Witnesses get the idea that only 144,000 people are going to Heaven. In case you were wondering.)
Christianity needs Hell, despite how counterintuitive the idea is with a religion that claims to have a loving god. Because, when you can't actually torture and kill people who don't believe in your personal flavor of religion (although god knows they've tried that, too), you need to have some kind of punishment to hold over their heads. And the fear of a place where no witnesses have ever returned is an easy fix for them.
(OK, admittedly there are some people who claim to have been to have been there, but they never seem to visit the gift shop and bring back souvenirs.)
Raised Catholic, when I went to church on occasion with my Baptist grandmother, the talk of hellfire and damnation always scared me a little. Our priest read from the gospels on Sunday and talked about how much God loved us and how we should love God and our neighbor. He never mentioned hell. There is no mention of hell in the gospels.
ReplyDeleteBut at my grandmother's church, the only thing the minister ever talked about was sinners and hell. As he spoke, the congregation would chime in with repeated "Amens" as if they all approved of some folks burning in hell.
The fixation on hell is interesting considering that the Bible doesn't make a whole lot of mention of hell, and when it does, it's not very descriptive. Dante's Inferno gives us much more gruesome details about hell than the Bible.
One of my mother's sisters, my Aunt Nellie Ruth, was always declaring her own saved status and declaring that pretty much everyone else was going to hell. When she was on one such rant,my mother looked up and calmly said, "Ruth if you're going to be in heaven, I'd rather be in hell."
Frodo's favorite non-English word is "cherem." Associating the Doctrine of the Remnant with such notables as Shaka Zulu (who followed it) and George H. W. Bush (who didn't) is as uncomfortable for self-avowed Christians as Holden Caulfield and a fart in church. Wouldn't it be a great place for the next moderator to begin his questions to Herman Cain? That would mix Frodo's idea of Heaven with Cain's view of Hell.
ReplyDeleteSimply put, lt's all about control. Always has been, humankind is good in that endeavor. Now, just to be balanced wouldn't a follow up post on Islam be in order?
ReplyDelete"Christianity needs Hell, despite how counterintuitive the idea is with a religion that claims to have a loving god."
ReplyDeleteIt's unfortunate but true that religion has long been used as a vehicle for control over others by people whose motives have nothing to do with Christ's teachings and example. The concept of hell is especially useful to authoritarian predators of this kind.
Another aspect of this is that, as a self-appointed arbiter of religious correctness, a person gets to feel superior while sitting in judgment of others. And, of course, the Bible in at least two places warns against sitting in judgment of others.
One thing to keep in mind is that this kind of manipulation and exploitation isn't Christian religion's fault, any more than a woman in a tight dress is at fault if someone rapes her.
RN, I feel no need to pile on to a minority religion which is already being unfairly persecuted at the hands of you and your ilk. They don't have any power here, except what you're giving to them.
ReplyDeleteYou just feel free to live in fear. That's your right.
Yeah, just to be "balanced" or in other words once again to change the uncomfortable subject by attacking another straw man from the "conservative" catalog. So let's not discuss Christianity when we could be bashing the Muslims. Let's not talk about crackpot Republican candidates when we could be reciting the Clintonhate catechism. Jesus, why don't we just ignore your infantile bullshit and address the subject at hand "just for balance?"
ReplyDeleteBesides Islam is an outgrowth of Christianity -- a hybrid -- just as Christianity is a hybrid of a first century Judaism and fourth century Greco-Roman paganism.
The "modern" concept of hell is an import and the Book of Daniel as well as Job are products of the exilic period: Judaised extracts from Mesopotamian sources. Satan as depicted in Job is right out of Babylonian pantheon and seems to have wandered back to Jerusalem in about 538 BCE. Like most religions, Judaism is a pastiche and Abraham, Moses, David and Jeremiah all had very different beliefs and yes, different Gods.
And of course, only Jeremiah had the Torah, if in fact he didn't write it.
And as for Dante, hasn't he been accused of cribbing his concept of Hell from Arabic sources? It certainly didn't come from Judaism -- and lastly, when did that loony from Patmos become the focus of Christianity?
I enjoyed Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan You might also. I see him as a political tool as well as a kind of immune system for a belief system, but of course I see Religion as something that needs a political envelope to survive and often and perhaps inevitably, the envelope survives the content.
Anyway, we're back on that subject again and I can only excuse myself by saying the Devil made me do it.
"Ruth if you're going to be in heaven, I'd rather be in hell."
ReplyDeletePerhaps she was unwittingly quoting Hatuey, one of my heroes, who was burned alive on February 2nd 1512 and allegedly having asked the conquerors of Cuba if Christians went to heaven, expressed his preference for hell.
"They tell us, these tyrants, that they adore a God of peace and equality, and yet they usurp our land and make us their slaves. They speak to us of an immortal soul and of their eternal rewards and punishments, and yet they rob our belongings, seduce our women, violate our daughters"
Aw heck! Jeeze-Whiz and all that! Sometimes the literalists take all the fun out of reading a good yarn. Maybe that's why I like cartoons and Sci-Fi so much - morality plays without the holy-hush baggage. An afternoon matinee without inciting the masses to beat up infidels. Take THAT, you Fundies! POW! ZAP!
ReplyDeleteOr as John Milton used to say: "Better to reign in Hell's Kitchen than to serve at Seven-Eleven."
I always thought Hell was, like, see, finding a Twenty on the sidewalk ten minutes AFTER the bar closed.
ReplyDeleteNameless Critic you said... "RN, I feel no need to pile on to a minority religion which is already being unfairly persecuted at the hands of you and your ilk."
ReplyDeleteMy ilk? I'm curious. What precisely would that be?
If your reference is in fact correct {that I have an ilk} then would it not also be correct to say that you have an ilk? And, being this would be so I would be just as curious as to what your might be.
I did not ask you to pile on to any 'minority" religion. I simply suggested the same in depth views be presented as to The religion of Islam. A fair statement.
As an atheist I have no religious preference nor do I feel the need to defend any particular religion.
I do see the "evils" that are inherent in ALL organized religions. When religious dogma and power become the driving force to overpower the beliefs of others, often by violent methodology, there are indeed evil.
Religion is a man made concept. Deep spirituality on the other hand is not IMHO.
I have my perceptions and you have yours. Honest dialogue requires looking at the broader picture and realities. I did not criticize your post nor point out errors.
Anyway, just sayin...
"I did not ask you to pile on to any 'minority" religion. I simply suggested the same in depth views be presented as to The religion of Islam. A fair statement."
ReplyDeleteA "fair statement" or an attempt at the traditional tu quoque?
Of course it's possible that old Sylvester the cat might have feathers sticking to his whiskers and really mean it when he says "who, me?" but this so closely resembles the consistently used technique of answering every last revolting revelation made about a Republican with "yeah, but what about Clinton, Obama, etc." Gee those crusades were horrible - yeah but what about 9/11. . .
"So what if my congressman was caught on video buggering goats - remember Monica?"
As I said, maybe it's coincidence that you use all the rhetorical tactics of a certain group, whether or not they're your ilk or only superficially ilkish. Maybe, but if I read your comments about Obama correctly, I think I see an ilk in sheep's clothing: an attempt to distort and distract under the guise of being "fair."
Capt - Fair is a subjective word.
ReplyDeleteAnd I see no need to clarify further my statements, they are perfectly clear, unless one may be desirous of a confrontational discussion. Which would not be me I assure you.
Therefore, from the perspective of my continued involvement the discussion is closed.
Yes, it is a relative term and using fairness or "balance" to promote falsehood, bias and distraction is what Fox does best. Are you being Foxy with us here?
ReplyDeleteOf course you have an ilk, RatNat. You're just like all the other Birchers loving on Ron Paul. You're always out there looking for somebody to hate - the next Great Satan. Because if you can focus everybody's eyes on the bad guy over there, you can rob them blind over here.
ReplyDeleteCommunists, Muslims - you don't care. And you don't mind if great evil is committed in the name of Good - as long as it matches your personal definition of "good," anyway.
It's actually sad, watching petty, insecure people make claim to a knowledge of "the Big Picture." You pretend to be rational and logical, but ignore truths when they're right in front of you.
Here, for example, you even used this link to bolster your claim that "6% of Muslims are extremist," while ignoring one important fact: you got it completely ass-backwards.
The statistic cited there only said that 6% of extremists are Muslim. The other 94% aren't, and the threat of Muslim terrorists is being overblown.
Go read it again. You were faced with the truth, and you either ignored it, lied about it, or just got it completely wrong. Just like you do with almost every other subject.
Like I said, your name must be meant ironically, right?