If success is measured in terms of who lied or amended the facts the most, then I give the prize to Romney.
My favorite lie is Romney's assertion that his tax cuts will result in 12 million jobs. The Economic Policy Institute (non-partisan) does not agree, From their issue brief projecting the impact of the respective candidates' budget plans on the economy:
The budget plans put forward by Barack Obama would lead to increased employment of about 1.1 million jobs in 2013 and 280,000 jobs in 2014, relative to current policy.
The Obama employment gains would be driven by an increase in spending of $135 billion over the current policy baseline, which is the result of $142 billion in temporary spending under his proposed American Jobs Act.
The budget plans put forward by Mitt Romney would lead to small job gains of 87,000 in 2013 and a loss of 641,000 jobs in 2014, relative to current policy, if his proposed tax cuts were fully deficit-financed.
If some of Romney’s proposed individual income tax cuts were revenue-neutral (he has said that they would be, but has not specified what “base-broadening” adjustments he would make to the tax code to accomplish that), his plans would instead lead to employment losses of 608,000 in 2013 and roughly 1.3 million in 2014.
The weaker job growth and outright job losses under the Romney plan are driven by his proposal to cap government spending at 20 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), a move that implies very large cuts to overall spending.--Who would promote job growth most in the near term?
Salon provides an article,Debate Fact Check that provides a thorough evaluation of the veracity of statements made during the debate.
The question is how long it will take the public to pull back the curtain and recognize that the Romney Wizard is a fake.
The President pushed Romney to reveal specifics of his plans and while I think Romney was energized for this debate, I don't believe the President was unfocused. Here's what I believe is the strategy: Push Romney on issues, while defending his (Obama's) policies and programs where needed but save his best moves for the final debate because, at the end of the day, THAT is the debate we're going to remember on election day - not this one. I'm really looking forward to the vice-presidential debate. I think that will be far more entertaining.
I was sure Obama had Romney on the ropes within the first ten minutes. He was panting like a dog and interrupting the moderator. He looked wild-eyed and desperate.
Best guess is that the anti-psychotic medications kicked in after about fifteen minutes. Remember how medicated Bush looked against Kerry? These guys have the best of care.
From this dinosaur's perspective, President Obama held his own and certainly didn't make a fool of himself, but unfortunately, as one William Jefferson Clinton has been known to say, people will often run with "strong and wrong" over semi-passive and right. Mitt Romney is a bullshit artist, but he's a pretty good one sometimes, and he was on his game this evening.
The president seemed tired, flat -- the drawn expression on his face and the fatigued body language said as much. I think perhaps he didn't get enough sleep -- I hear the tiredness in my own voice when I don't get much sleep, and it's the same weary tone I heard in his. Well, he's a busy man, to be sure, so I don't blame him.
I mention style only because a fair amount of "undecided" voters really are so ignorant that that's all they respond to -- witness the insta-polls which have "undecided" potential voters now quite certain that the Mittster cares DEEPLY about them. I presume they think his notion of voucherizing Medicare is excellent evidence of that. They're none too bright, to put the matter bluntly.
Ultimately, I don't know that the debates will matter much. What matters most is effective campaigning in the swing states, especially Ohio. It always comes down to the ground game.
One thing I believe Romney got rope-a-doped into doing was ENTHUSIASTICALLY, CONFIDENTLY SUGGESTING THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE OR WILL BECOME REALLY HIGH ON HIS OWN PLAN TO SEMI-PRIVATIZE MEDICARE. I think that's still a third-rail move in 2012 just as it's been for a few decades now. You can look for the Obama campaign to capitalize on it big-time. The manner in which he made this claim was incredibly crass: to paraphrase coarsely, "Hey, if you're over 60, don't worry -- we're not going to screw YOU; just look the other way while we diddle your children and grandchildren." I don't think that's going to go over so well in the next month or so remaining until election day. A few low-info voters may go for it, but that's about all she writ.
Tax cuts don't create jobs -- history doesn't lie. Tax cuts don't pay for themselves. History doesn't lie. Wars aren't free and tax cuts don't pay for them. We didn't get into debt from Social Security or Medicare and almost 90% of "Obama's" debts were run up by the god damned Republicans.
Why can't anyone just cut the posturing and the "debating" and say it? Where the hell are the fact checkers, the journalists?
Yes, I found the whole thing frustrating because it was easy to see what was going on. The debate atmosphere is stilted and juvenile. It's sort of like watching a junior-high debate club: the Arschloch with the bubbly personality trumps the smart chap every time. The Arschloch seems overprepped and preternaturally energetic, while the smart chap seems a bit slow, even befuddled.
Thinking takes time, but "immediate are the acts of lying goddamn Arschlochs, more swift than time or motion" (Milton would be infuriated with me for that. Shame on me. I'm a bad dinosaur.)
Ein Arschloch, zwei Arschlöcher, but the public doesn't care that he's the Great White Dope. He's white, he's against the "freeloaders" and he at least looks like America ought to look -- white and anglo.
None of this has anything to do with anything else and these Arschlöcher would vote for any Hahnsauger, Hurensohn und Miststück that runs against those Democrats.
It's sort of like watching a junior-high debate club.
It seems to me that middle schoolers stick to the classic rules of debating, are capable of arguing either side, stay within their time limits, treat the moderator with the respect they deserve and there is generally a clearly recognized winner who stated his or her case more eloquently that can be agreed upon by the majority of oservers who are not overly invested in either point-of-view.
If the President appeared "tired and flat" perhaps the media should focus speculation as to the reasons. Here is mine:
Hours before the debate, an international incident occurred - one that did not get the media attention it deserved. The Syrian military lobbed artillery shells across the border into Turkey killing 5 villagers. Inasmuch as Turkey is a Nato member and all members are bound by the terms of the treaty, an attack against one is considered an attack against all. I am willing to conjecture this: Obama spent considerable time that day on the telephone urging restraint among the Nato allies to avoid a larger Middle East conflict. Obama has always been focused on performing his job; spouting "blah-blah-blah" before TV cameras is not his #1 priority.
Meanwhile Rmoney has the luxury of sitting on his plush and cushy piles of money stashed offshore as he prepares for the debate. Obama probably spent that day putting out fires.
Don't you wish we could contribute questions on the fly? Like "what would you do about this Rombo? Start another war that would pay for itself if we eliminate taxes altogether?"
I'm tired of both parties acting like Bush and his 8 years of misery never happened. It's time somebody yelled "this is what Bush did and it's the same damn thing Romney wants to do!"
Obama blew it. Any talk that he is saving his attacks for a later debate, is a losing strategy. Romney's false statements should have been countered, at the moment, not left to be seen as a move to the center for Romney, or mistaken as fact because Obama did not counter Romney's lies.
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Romney Takes Round 1... On substance and effectiveness. Obama was flat and defensive, quite ineffective. Joe Trippi calls it for Romney as well.
ReplyDeleteNow we wait to see if Romney moves the needle in his favor with the all critical independents.
If success is measured in terms of who lied or amended the facts the most, then I give the prize to Romney.
DeleteMy favorite lie is Romney's assertion that his tax cuts will result in 12 million jobs. The Economic Policy Institute (non-partisan) does not agree, From their issue brief projecting the impact of the respective candidates' budget plans on the economy:
The budget plans put forward by Barack Obama would lead to increased employment of about 1.1 million jobs in 2013 and 280,000 jobs in 2014, relative to current policy.
The Obama employment gains would be driven by an increase in spending of $135 billion over the current policy baseline, which is the result of $142 billion in temporary spending under his proposed American Jobs Act.
The budget plans put forward by Mitt Romney would lead to small job gains of 87,000 in 2013 and a loss of 641,000 jobs in 2014, relative to current policy, if his proposed tax cuts were fully deficit-financed.
If some of Romney’s proposed individual income tax cuts were revenue-neutral (he has said that they would be, but has not specified what “base-broadening” adjustments he would make to the tax code to accomplish that), his plans would instead lead to employment losses of 608,000 in 2013 and roughly 1.3 million in 2014.
The weaker job growth and outright job losses under the Romney plan are driven by his proposal to cap government spending at 20 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), a move that implies very large cuts to overall spending.--Who would promote job growth most in the near term?
Salon provides an article,Debate Fact Check that provides a thorough evaluation of the veracity of statements made during the debate.
The question is how long it will take the public to pull back the curtain and recognize that the Romney Wizard is a fake.
The President pushed Romney to reveal specifics of his plans and while I think Romney was energized for this debate, I don't believe the President was unfocused. Here's what I believe is the strategy: Push Romney on issues, while defending his (Obama's) policies and programs where needed but save his best moves for the final debate because, at the end of the day, THAT is the debate we're going to remember on election day - not this one.
ReplyDeleteI'm really looking forward to the vice-presidential debate. I think that will be far more entertaining.
I was sure Obama had Romney on the ropes within the first ten minutes. He was panting like a dog and interrupting the moderator. He looked wild-eyed and desperate.
ReplyDeleteBest guess is that the anti-psychotic medications kicked in after about fifteen minutes. Remember how medicated Bush looked against Kerry? These guys have the best of care.
From this dinosaur's perspective, President Obama held his own and certainly didn't make a fool of himself, but unfortunately, as one William Jefferson Clinton has been known to say, people will often run with "strong and wrong" over semi-passive and right. Mitt Romney is a bullshit artist, but he's a pretty good one sometimes, and he was on his game this evening.
ReplyDeleteThe president seemed tired, flat -- the drawn expression on his face and the fatigued body language said as much. I think perhaps he didn't get enough sleep -- I hear the tiredness in my own voice when I don't get much sleep, and it's the same weary tone I heard in his. Well, he's a busy man, to be sure, so I don't blame him.
I mention style only because a fair amount of "undecided" voters really are so ignorant that that's all they respond to -- witness the insta-polls which have "undecided" potential voters now quite certain that the Mittster cares DEEPLY about them. I presume they think his notion of voucherizing Medicare is excellent evidence of that. They're none too bright, to put the matter bluntly.
Ultimately, I don't know that the debates will matter much. What matters most is effective campaigning in the swing states, especially Ohio. It always comes down to the ground game.
One thing I believe Romney got rope-a-doped into doing was ENTHUSIASTICALLY, CONFIDENTLY SUGGESTING THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE OR WILL BECOME REALLY HIGH ON HIS OWN PLAN TO SEMI-PRIVATIZE MEDICARE. I think that's still a third-rail move in 2012 just as it's been for a few decades now. You can look for the Obama campaign to capitalize on it big-time. The manner in which he made this claim was incredibly crass: to paraphrase coarsely, "Hey, if you're over 60, don't worry -- we're not going to screw YOU; just look the other way while we diddle your children and grandchildren." I don't think that's going to go over so well in the next month or so remaining until election day. A few low-info voters may go for it, but that's about all she writ.
Tax cuts don't create jobs -- history doesn't lie. Tax cuts don't pay for themselves. History doesn't lie. Wars aren't free and tax cuts don't pay for them. We didn't get into debt from Social Security or Medicare and almost 90% of "Obama's" debts were run up by the god damned Republicans.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't anyone just cut the posturing and the "debating" and say it? Where the hell are the fact checkers, the journalists?
Capt. Fogg,
ReplyDeleteYes, I found the whole thing frustrating because it was easy to see what was going on. The debate atmosphere is stilted and juvenile. It's sort of like watching a junior-high debate club: the Arschloch with the bubbly personality trumps the smart chap every time. The Arschloch seems overprepped and preternaturally energetic, while the smart chap seems a bit slow, even befuddled.
Thinking takes time, but "immediate are the acts of lying goddamn Arschlochs, more swift than time or motion" (Milton would be infuriated with me for that. Shame on me. I'm a bad dinosaur.)
Ein Arschloch, zwei Arschlöcher, but the public doesn't care that he's the Great White Dope. He's white, he's against the "freeloaders" and he at least looks like America ought to look -- white and anglo.
ReplyDeleteNone of this has anything to do with anything else and these Arschlöcher would vote for any Hahnsauger, Hurensohn und Miststück that runs against those Democrats.
It's sort of like watching a junior-high debate club.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that middle schoolers stick to the classic rules of debating, are capable of arguing either side, stay within their time limits, treat the moderator with the respect they deserve and there is generally a clearly recognized winner who stated his or her case more eloquently that can be agreed upon by the majority of oservers who are not overly invested in either point-of-view.
If only...
If the President appeared "tired and flat" perhaps the media should focus speculation as to the reasons. Here is mine:
ReplyDeleteHours before the debate, an international incident occurred - one that did not get the media attention it deserved. The Syrian military lobbed artillery shells across the border into Turkey killing 5 villagers. Inasmuch as Turkey is a Nato member and all members are bound by the terms of the treaty, an attack against one is considered an attack against all. I am willing to conjecture this: Obama spent considerable time that day on the telephone urging restraint among the Nato allies to avoid a larger Middle East conflict. Obama has always been focused on performing his job; spouting "blah-blah-blah" before TV cameras is not his #1 priority.
Meanwhile Rmoney has the luxury of sitting on his plush and cushy piles of money stashed offshore as he prepares for the debate. Obama probably spent that day putting out fires.
Don't you wish we could contribute questions on the fly? Like "what would you do about this Rombo? Start another war that would pay for itself if we eliminate taxes altogether?"
ReplyDeleteI'm tired of both parties acting like Bush and his 8 years of misery never happened. It's time somebody yelled "this is what Bush did and it's the same damn thing Romney wants to do!"
Obama blew it. Any talk that he is saving his attacks for a later debate, is a losing strategy. Romney's false statements should have been countered, at the moment, not left to be seen as a move to the center for Romney, or mistaken as fact because Obama did not counter Romney's lies.
ReplyDelete